I’m filing this under the “Bash the Church” category — Anne Rice “Quits” Christianity. But after hearing Ms. Rice’s description of Christianity, I’m thinking it deserves to be quit. In a series of controversial Facebook posts, the recently re-converted author describes Christianity as a
“…quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group.”
As part of that “infamous group,” I am here to do my “disputatious” best to reinforce those unfair stereoty– , er, descriptions. Here’s a few more from Anne’s post:
…I quit being a Christian. I’m out. In the name of Christ, I refuse to be anti-gay. I refuse to be anti-feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-Democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti-science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of …Christ, I quit Christianity and being Christian. Amen.
Frankly, I’m not sure where all these anti-everything folks are. They’re not at my church. Or the churches I know. Heck, our church recently gathered hundreds of pairs of shoes and donated them to Soles4Souls. We also completed our Back-to-School Outreach for low-income families in our town, filling dozens of backpacks with school supplies. Furthermore, we just sent two missions teams to Honduras to help with some projects (my son, Chris, was on one of those teams). And I know of lots more churches that are doing the same thing. Which could explain why I’m having such a hard time with this anti-everything stereoty–, um, depiction.
So what “Christianity” is Anne Rice quitting?
THIS PIECE in the Huffington Post shines more light on what may have precipitated the author’s “baby-and-the-bathwater” moment.
Earlier this week on her public Facebook page, Rice had expressed her horror and revulsion at two different news stories that shared similar themes.
The first was the co-opting of the “Christian” imprimatur by the GOP-linked “Christian punk rock” band You Can Run But You Cannot Hide, supported by Michele Bachmann, who believe that gays should be executed, and who deride America for not being “moral enough” to make homosexuality a capital crime like it is in Iran. The second story was an exposé of a seven-year old boy who had been indoctrinated into Fred Phelps’ Westboro Baptist Church, whose sole great commission is virulent hatred.
Well, this explains it. Anne Rice is quitting the “God Hates Fags” / “Gays Should Be Executed” kind of Christianity. The problem is, I think a whole bunch of us just got lumped in there. But is that fair? I have some gay in-laws and have not once considered executing them. Talking some sense to them? Occasionally. But we’re actually on good terms. Do I agree with their lifestyle? Nope. So does that make me anti-gay? The “Follow Christ /Quit Christianity” crowd would probably say so. Does it help that I am anti-Fred Phelps. Oops, there I go with that anti attitude.
Okay, I apologize for the snarky tone. But I just get so tired of these broadbrush, wholesale condemnations of Christianity based on extremists and fringe positions. And isn’t that what the “Follow Christ / Quit Christianity” folks do? They portray a caricature and then reject it. Yes, if ALL Christians were “quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious,” “anti-gay,” “anti-feminist,” “anti-artificial birth control,” “anti-Democrat,” “anti-secular humanism,” and “anti-science,” I would quit Christianity too!
The problem is ALL Christians aren’t. An ever bigger problem: If Christianity is a big family, like the Bible says, Fred Phelps might possibly be Anne Rice’s very distant cousin.
Continued…
I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she made an actual commitment to go on this journey but simply decided to pack her bags early. While I’m sure some people will fret, weep and don sackcloth and ashes over Anne Rice’s latest decision about the faith, you can count me out.
Sure, it’s sad when a sheep loses its way, but when the sheep gives a truly incoherent and babbling rant for why she got lost and blames all the other sheep in the process, you have to wonder. I have a hard time taking her seriously, what with these silly leftist, village-atheist-type sounding talking points about the type of Christianity she describes.
Let her live in her ignorance. We may be losing a sister by her departure, but we are surely not losing an intellectual giant.
Mike, I’m not sure I agree with your assessment. Or tone. I would not characterize Ms. Rice’s position as “a truly incoherent and babbling rant”. I thought it was pretty articulate. Furthermore, I think I understand her feelings pretty well, even agree with them in some ways. In fact, I would question whether or not she’s actually leaving “the fold”. If she remains a “follower of Christ,” by default, she is part of His Body.
Her reasoning is mind-boggling. Being a non-Christian before, wouldn’t she have known about all these “problems”? Who would reject a belief system because of its extremists?
I’m really suspicious of this…she might be hiding something or she’s getting skewed data from somewhere.
Anybody out there read her journey notes in OUT OF DARKNESS? I did. It was powerful, good and it delineated her journey prior to this time, through INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE and her other genre-founding books.
Anybody out there remember BJ Thomas (“Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head”? Bob Dylan (“Gotta Serve Somebody”)? Robert A. Heinlein? All of these people at one time or another either publicly supported or actively preached faith in Christ.
Anybody ever hear of Lois McMaster Bujold (Mile Vorkosigan books; THE SHARING KNIFE books)? She doesn’t update or even write on her own FaceBook account. Who updates and writes on Anne Rice’s? I don’t know. Never been there. Probably won’t go there. It’s probably gone by now anyway.
What am I trying to say? Anne Rice is a public figure. She shifted her writing to appeal to the Christian market. Her son is activistly gay and she (duh) loves him! If the market tanked; her son has been multiply and deeply reviled and/or wounded; her “new” fiction was unacceptable to Christians (from the fringe inward…) and they either refused to forgive her for writing vampire and/or Satanic fiction and/or wrote scathing “hate” mail to her and/or she couldn’t make enough $ to live off of…
She’s a PUBLIC person who, while she may be struggling NOW isn’t necessarily going to stay THERE forever…it just looks like it because SHE’S A PUBLIC PERSON and reporters have to have something to report on. If I ranted the exact same words NO ONE would be reporting on me. How about we give Anne Rice some room to breathe, think — and grow? Besides, is repudiating all the “stuff” the same thing as rejecting Jesus Christ? You notice she doesn’t reject the TITLE…what’s that mean?
Guy, I hope I’m not appearing to be condemnatory here, because I’m not. I believe in giving Anne Rice “some room to breathe, think — and grow.” But does that mean not commenting on what could inevitably mischaracterize organized religion, indict professing Christians, fuel ongoing hatred of the Church (be it Catholic or Christian), and perpetuate lifestyles and notions about Christianity that just aren’t right? I dunno. I just have a hard time winking at this as just “spiritual immaturity.” As always, I appreciate your comments!
Nah, you’re not condemnatory. I also believe we should comment.
My concern — which I didn’t express clearly — is this: Every burp and giggle of celebrity is reported and made much of and it SHOULDN’T be. She’s a star. She created a genre. Her writing wooed millions to read. But her rant is just that: the rant of a PERSON. One person.
Her carrying more weight than one person is a comment on US rather than a comment on her. I have read other rants by non-celebrities that get no response at all. Why do we grant more weight to Anne Rice than to John and Mary Doe? Is it because she came back to Christ after a sojourn away? No. It’s because she has a Name. I don’t see (just picking one at random) anyone here discussing this site: (or any of the ones linked to it) http://www.antichristian-phenomenon.com/
The reason may be because “the antichristian-phenomenon” do not “have a name”.
Well, if truth be really told, I have a Name, too, and it’s the Name Above All Names. That Name says He’s a hound of Heaven and won’t leave ANY of us alone…
That’s what I wanted to say.
Guy, I went to that link you gave and found a couple of interesting things in their FAQ page:
6. Is there a difference between AntiChristian and anti-church?
Anti-church is not AntiChristian or in any way anti-religious; generally quite the opposite. Anti-church tends to be a movement away from traditionally structured religious services, while still associating with the religion. Because of this some consider themselves “nonreligious”, which is a misnomer considering they are still practicing their religion just not in a central place of worship. So anti-church is not AntiChristian in that a Christian who is anti-church is still a Christian. AntiChristianity is quite simply and literally an anti-Christian movement, and completely indifferent to the place, type or manner of worship.
That one, and this one:
10. What is the definition of religion?
This is a point of much contention amongst all denominations, religious or not. Wikipedia offers a decent if broad definition:
“A set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term “religion” refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.” This is a fairly reasonable definition and broad enough to encompass most semi-regulated systems of belief. Of course not everyone would agree.
For example, some believe that Christianity is not a religion but a “lifestyle” or “personal relationship” with Jesus/God. Despite this, they continue to partake of what other Christian denominations partake in, including but not limited to prayer, repentance, communal worship, adherence of religious laws and recognition of religious holidays. These are also activities practiced by other denominations such as Judaism or Islam; denominations these Christians would not hesitate to refer to as a religion.
—————————
I just thought those were interesting and thought I’d post them here since the website was brought up.
I have been a fan of her FB page for quite some time.. and i suppose if you went through her page and saw some of the “discussions” that take place within the topics/opinions that she posts… you would better understand her stance on the “anti-everything” christians.
As a public person, she is constantly scrutinized and torn down over and over for her past publications, new found faith, and stances on current affairs.
She is a strongly opinionated person and doesnt back down to “bullies”
I suggest becoming a “fan” and reading through her thoughts and see the reactions she has been getting from so called “Christians”
It is truly sad that a few bad nuts can ruin something for someone obviously trying very hard to come to terms withGod.
Mike.. i wish she could have an afternoon to speak with you or attend your church.
Here is the link to her page if anyone is interested:
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/annericefanpage?ref=ts
She is always active there and willing to converse with those who want to exchange thoughts
Renee, I am a fan of Anne Rice’s. I have followed her Facebook and Twitter presence for a long time, and even saw her in person when she came to Riverside (see THIS POST). Having been a Christian for 30 years (and a Catholic for almost 20 before that!), over 10 of them as a pastor, I am well aware with the problems w/in Christianity. Unlike Anne Rice, however, I remain a follower of Christ and a member of His dysfunctional Body. And, yes, I’d love for her to visit my church! Appreciate your comments…
Hi, Mike, I think you are being too harsh towards Anne. You will not win souls back into fellowship with the body of Christ by bashing them. “Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt…” (Colossians 4:6). Many of Anne’s criticisms have credence.
As a christian for some 30 years, as well as being a pastor for part of that time, I am sure you are aware that all christians are not at the same level of christian maturity, so are not readily able to recognize the tactics of Satan to use false teachings to tear apart the body of Christ. Many goodhearted Christians do not recognize or have not been taught the serious Spiritual warfare that we are engaged in against the forces of evil. Paul admonishes us to prepare for that battle (Ephesians 6:11-18) by putting on the “full armor” of GOD.
Most of all we need to show understanding, compassion and PRAY for Anne that she herself pray and study GOD’s word to fortify herself against any further erosion of her faith. “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD” (Romans 10:17).
Satan would like nothing more than to see her spirit isolated from the Body of Christ creating a greater vulnerability to steal her away completely from Christ. His mission will then be accomplished. Because once faith is gone, so is the Hope that defines our belief in Jesus Christ. Staying connected to the Body of Christ to show each other love, uplift and to encourage one another is one of the reasons scripture tells us “… let us consider one another to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together…” (Romans 10:24-25)
Great thoughts Mike and you saved me the effort of posting on my site. What I noticed about this current flap was the comments made by some Christians who so quickly took Rice’s side though they had no idea what was really behind what she wrote and said. Some on a theology board I visit immediately said, “I feel just like her.” Then I see she uses examples for her exodus to be people like the Phelps and I shudder. I have purely pagan friends who recognize the “God hates fags” group is not representative of 99% of those who claim the name of Christ.
My initial gut reaction was that Rice began her journey back to the faith as her husband slowly died of cancer and it began to exit again as her son was rejected by some who put Christian on the front of their name.
That impressions still stand.
Hmmm. What church has she been attending? There are certainly hateful churches, but as Christians we are to use our intellect, read the Bible, and decide for ourselves if that church is truly preaching the gospel. It sounds as though she’s bought into stereotypes, for whatever reason. They may be true in some cases (and those are the cases we hear about on the news), but as a whole, I’ve found Christians to be a gracious, forgiving, loving bunch…much moreso then any other group of people I’ve encountered. (And I’m not just saying that because, I’m a Christian. I noticed it BEFORE I became a Christian. It’s one of the things that compelled me to become baptised. I realized those Christians must be doing something right and I wanted to know what it was.)
As Christians we try to align ourselves with what we believe as revealed through scripture. I personally am a Republican because they seem to follow more closely to my belief system. That does not mean I am anti-Democrat but more like pro-Republican. I believe in the Bibles family values that say marriage is between a man and woman and that homosexuality is not in alignment with Gods word. Does that make me anti-gay? If so, then you may also call me anti-shacking up. Standing up for what you believe in is what makes this country great. We all have a God given right to believe what we want to believe. People will jump on any bandwagon that defends these rights of freedom. However, if someone who calls themself a Christian actually steps up and says what he believes he is labled as anti this or that. Wake up america and support those who hold a moral high-ground, otherwise you will find yourself wading in a cesspool of “Everything is OK”
Ann Rice needs to get a firm foundation in her faith instead of jumping on and off her bandwagon of generalizing Christianity. I think there are so many people who probably agree with her last statement but they too, are more worried about the reputations that Christians can have…judgemental, self righteous, non-loving, church going people. There may be some truth to those stereotypes BUT I still take pride in being called a Christian and/or a Christ follower. I’m happy with either title simply because despite my brokenness, I am striving to have Christ the center of my life. There may be “non-practicing” Christians out there who also have labeled themselves Christian out of comfort of what it may mean for their future but they may not be living out what it means to be Christian today. Perhaps that is why being labeled a “Christian” puts a sour taste in some peoples mouths. If we are all too worried about being identified by a title, a denomination, a brand, or otherwise then we are focusing too much of our energy on here and now of trends instead of the eternal values written of fruits of the spirit. Mike, I think you acknowleged some of the great missional values NHCC has been acting upon. If we continue to breathe the life of Christ in our church and community I don’t think what we say we are or not will matter. Hope that makes sense 🙂
Here’s 1 Peter 2
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202&version=MSG
What I meant to say….
*Of course what we say will matter but in reference to being a Christian or a Christ Follower my point was our actions should put these titles (or the controversy there of) to rest.
Mike, you’ve made a strong argument against bashing Christianity as a result of a one-size-fits-all view of Christians (remarkably similar to the argument I recently made about certain views of Christian fiction).
Becky
Very apt, Becky — I had already begun to notice the parallels, and will likely soon comment on them in “print.” …
Don’t go there, Rebecca…
Somehow I don’t think she’ll need to, Mike. 🙂
But I promise I’ll do my best to be Christlike!
Amazingly enough, I saw the similarities – and the interesting timing of it all on the heels of what happened with Eric Wilson – yet this is a much different kind of argument.
A simplified way to show the difference is this:
One is an internal squabble; The Other is a external battle that has serious consequences for Anne Rice, for those within The Body, and for those without The Body, and these consequences can have Eternal impacts on all involved.
Trying to connect internal problems and external problems together as the same thing isn’t a good idea Rebecca. I agree fully with Mike as he is quite correct on much more than one level, “Don’t go there, Rebecca…”
David, I had no intention of discussing the similarities further in connection with this post. I’m not sure I think there’s a lot of value in talking about Anne Rice’s spiritual condition or motives or whatnot, but I do think Mike has made valuable observations about church-bashing and Christians-bashing: generalities are misleading, inaccurate, and foster wrong conclusions. I don’t happen to think it matters if the topic is something “internal” or “external.” As I see it, generalities are misleading, inaccurate, and foster wrong conclusions.
Becky
Unfortunately, hateful people (including those who call themselves Christians) are the ones that many people run across, or hear about, and then make a judgment against ALL people within that “group.” This is why I abhor stereotypes, and hate lumping ANYONE into groups. It’s collectivist thinking and it’s wrong.
Yes, there are many hateful “Christians,” (and Muslims, and Jews, and atheists etc.) in the world. But there are many who are not hateful. Unfortunately, many people only come across the hateful ones because they are the ones who scream the loudest.
Great post, Mike.
My problem with the Church is I just hate groups. Any group really. I love people but hate groups. Any more then 3 or 4 people and I start to get uncomfortable and annoyed quickly. So I think any church I go to I will have a problem so maybe I am not the best person to talk about this but here it goes….
The problem with Churches are they are full of people. An empty Church is a beautiful place to be.
I currently go to a stuffy Baptist Church. We sing hymns so old John Newton wouldn’t recognize them. I hate those hymns. Our pastor regularly preaches for over an hour. Its looked down upon to drink coffee in our Church so with the singing, offering, Lords Supper and a long winded preacher that’s usually 2 hours with no coffee. And I need coffee. So why do I go to this church I cant stand? Because there are some people there I really love. They are family to me. And they need me just as much as I need them.
God ordained the Church. As imperfect as they all are, they are necessary to our spiritual growth. My long winded pastor sometimes touches a little too close to my sin and I leave slightly offended. But thats good. The Church should sometimes offend. We need to stop looking for Churches that make us happy. And be happy we have a Church.
In response to this…
“Frankly, I’m not sure where all these anti-everything folks are. They’re not at my church. Or the churches I know.”
You are lucky. In the last church i attended there were numerous occasions of church members.. even LEADERS within the church who seemed “anti-everything”. ive had youth pastors look down on friends that i tried to bring into the youth group.. people who needed to hear encouragment and feel Gods presense were rejected and made to feel unwelcome. (for no action of their own) I myself have been unfairly judged because my opinions or thoughts on certain subjects differed from those of said members/youth leaders.
The Jesus I KNOW, in my heart.. would never have treated me in the manner that these “Christians” have in the past… this type of treatment is what pushes people away from the church.. and sometimes even away from God : ( I had a strong Christian upbringing by people like you, Mike, and men like my father… who truly LOVE the Lord and try to live in the light and lead by example… so though i disagreed with the church, i did not lose my faith.
Others… without a strong foundation, may not be able to do the same.
Thanks for visiting, Renee. When I was pastoring, one day after church a man approached me and said he just stopped attending a church where, every Sunday, the men of the church had to line up and walk past the pastor who checked the length of their hair. Hair over the ear was unacceptable. Crazy, huh?
I know there’s a lot of weird, unhealthy, distorted, stupid things passed off as Christianity. I know that people grow up being pummeled by these unbiblical notions. How else can they act toward Christianity but in revulsion? But — and this is what I’m struggling with — perpetuating the idea that ALL Christians / churches are THIS screwed up is just as wrong.
Mike, here’s a video interview with Rice.
Something about this smacks of publicity.
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/08/04/video-noted-liberal-bummed-that-most-christians-arent-as-liberal-as-she-is/
Very interesting, Jay. Boy, she’s walking a tightrope. And did you catch her calling herself “anti-abortion”? So I guess some antis are all right. Thanks for the link.
P.S. Joy Behar was an added treat.
I’m wondering, too: did Rice get as much coverage when she accepted Christianity? Probably not, at least in mainstream media.
I still can’t come to a reasonable conclusion about her (not that we can, really, without knowing her personally), which is why I think there’s something really strange going on here.
It is wrong. And foolish. And ridiculous. And trite.
And sad.
Amen!
Well, that interview, confirms what I already had spoken to before seeing it. You can’t convince me Rice didn’t know all of this before she returned to the Catholic Church. Why she turned to the church is something only she knows. Why she now turns from the church may be something even she doesn’t know. In less than one minute she praised both radical feminism and secular humanism. But nowhere did I hear her finding one thing within the organized church to commend. I recommend she take a stroll over onto Second Street in New Orleans and observe the work of Southern Baptist at the Rachel Simms Mission. It has operated in the worst part of what locals know as the Irish Channel since 1910 providing numerous service and some hope to people who are hopeless. Do we have problems? Without a doubt. But had she wanted to see, she would have also found much to hang on to.
Christians are anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-Democrat, anti-science, etc. etc. Those are not conclusions reached by any measure of careful, nuanced thought, so I’m not going on the Christian apology tour. Tone-deaf perhaps.
Speaking of critics of faith, Mr. Hitchens is battling cancer and has some interesting comments about life and death – and prayer groups.
http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/09/hitchens-201009
Thanks for the link, Mike. I have been working on a piece regarding Hitchens’ cancer. We prayed for him last Sunday at church.
Anne is NOT just one person. Rather being on the defensive, look at the bigger picture. There are many, many, many people who have left Christianity who feel that they have found a voice through Anne, whereas they never had a voice before but were sushed up and not listened to, or even worse, called immature and unthinking. This defensiveness is not profitable, except maybe for a sense of safety and smugness.
Thanks for commenting, Fay. Actually, what Anne Rice is saying is nothing new. At all. People have been disillusioned with the Church since its inception. She just happens to be the latest iteration. But the idea that they “never had a voice before” is silly. The liberal wing of Christendom has been voicing these same complaints for decades.
I’m really glad I found your website. Both #1 and #2 are great. I retweeted them.
I’m a baptist and whenever Westboro is on I can ‘t help but wince. We’re not the same there. LOL.
Did Anne Rice also miss the different ministries out there that help gays away from that lifestyle WITH LOVE? One that I know of was founded by a formerly gay person who recently went Home.
May I also mention a friend of mine welcomed a gay person with open arms and continued to witness to her in Soup Kitchen until she accepted Christ and turned from that lifestyle leaving her girlfriend? I don’t think hate did that.
I don’t tolerate their behavior, but I don’t hate them either. I think Focus on the Family has an article called Love Without Compromise. Plus, while we may have our failings, I think we have alot of positives. I guess it just depends what our motives are in making the announcement she made in such a public way. I heard a new book is coming out soon. Also, isn’t her son in or run or a head of or a part of a politically active gay/lesbian group?
One day I mentioned to a friend how someone I cared about was angry at churches. That person refuses to attend any church. The first reaction from my friend was, “What makes her so perfect?”
She didn’t mean it in any negative or bad way, but matter of fact. I know I probaly offend people occasionally, too. I would like to hope that nothing I would say would chase someone away from church, but I’ve known people who have a high sensitivity to things. A kind of, ‘I want you to be patient with my weaknesses, but I can’t be patient with yours.’
Anyway, great blog. Well put.
“Okay, I apologize for the snarky tone. But I just get so tired of these broadbrush, wholesale condemnations of Christianity based on extremists and fringe positions. And isn’t that what the “Follow Christ / Quit Christianity” folks do? They portray a caricature and then reject it. Yes, if ALL Christians were “quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious,” “anti-gay,” “anti-feminist,” “anti-artificial birth control,” “anti-Democrat,” “anti-secular humanism,” and “anti-science,” I would quit Christianity too!
The problem is ALL Christians aren’t.”
Okay, I apologize for the snarky tone.
But I just get so tired of these broadbrush, wholesale condemnations of Being Muslim based on extremists and fringe positions.
And isn’t that what the “Follow Christ / Quit Being Muslim” folks do? They portray a caricature and then reject it.
Yes, if ALL Muslims were “quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious,” “anti-gay,” “anti-feminist,” “anti-artificial birth control,” “anti-Democrat,” “anti-secular humanism,” and “anti-American,” I would quit Being Muslim too!
The problem is ALL Muslims aren’t.
Wow, interesting conversations. The reason why I am here is because I googled for desperation… “I am so tired of Christendom” to see if anyone is going through what I have been struggling with for quite some time now. I became a Christian while a run-away kid on the streets of Germany. Since then I have followed Jesus. I have lived in the US for some 36 years and have grown more and more disillusioned of the Christian faith as it is being represented by American society. The shallowness that is being perpetuated in the name of Christ is right out depressing and the ethical choices made by Americans in daily life are amplified by their Christian Culture counterparts . The divorce of the IDEAL as it is worshiped by organized Christianity is being carefully kept separate from the REAL and what Dietrich Bonhoeffer coined “cheap grace” has become quint essence to faith identity in organized ‘christian religion’ in the US.
I have very different concerns from Anne Rice, concerns that strike at the heart of the disease than deal merely with its symptoms. I am in utter pain as I write because my walk has lead me to a loneliness that is in danger of becoming alienated even from my best and trusted friends.