I’d like to welcome Kat Heckenbach, author of the recently released Middle-Grade fantasy Finding Angel. Her writing spans the gamut from inspirational personal essays to dark and disturbing fantasy and horror, with over forty short fiction and nonfiction credits to her name. Finding Angel involves magic, an oft-debated subject among Christian authors and readers, which I asked Kat to address for us here.
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Most of us have heard about the debate among Christians regarding Harry Potter. One camp says Harry Potter is evil because it’s about “witchcraft” and leads people into the world of the occult. Parents ban their children from reading it. Pastors preach against it. They do this, of course, because the Bible says we are not to practice witchcraft or sorcery.
The other camp says Harry Potter is harmless. It isn’t “real” witchcraft, nor is it anything resembling occultism. Christians from this camp cite works like The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia—I’m assuming because Tolkien and Lewis are the two “big” names in fantasy who are known to be Christians.
I’m not here to debate Harry Potter. Yes, I’m a huge fan and I believe Rowling is a Christian. I am here to give my side of the story regarding magic in Christian fiction.
You see, I write fantasy. With magic. And I am a Christian.
To be honest, until Harry Potter came along I had no idea there were Christians who didn’t approve of fiction with magic. I grew up in the Bewitched generation, watching “Samantha” wiggle her nose to make objects fly across the room or disappear. I ran around the house trying so hard—and failing—to make my nose move like that. Another favorite of mine was I Dream of Jeannie. Hah—I could definitely cross my arms and nod! Of course I was pretending, and I knew the magic in those shows was the kind found in fairy tales.
Biblical magic—what the Bible refers to as witchcraft and sorcery—is an entirely different beast. The Bible warns us against trying to dip into a realm where we don’t belong. Summoning the dead or trying to gain access to the powers of demons. Those are things I can honestly call evil, and should never be given a positive light in Christian fiction.
I make a definitive distinction in my novel, Finding Angel, regarding that kind of magic vs. the fairy tale magic my characters possess. In the opening chapter 
I mention Angel’s friend who uses Ouija boards and Tarot cards. Those activities distress Angel. She knows her friend is delving into dangerous territory. But Angel herself dreams constantly about fairy tale magic.
And when Angel discovers that the fairy tale magic she has dreamed of is real, it’s a bit of a surprise. It’s not just as easy as “think something you want” (or wiggle your nose) and “poof.” Physical rules govern the magic—such as conservation of matter. And the powers belonging to each character are innate, not attained by some ritual or spell book. There are no direct or overt references to God/Jesus/Christianity in Finding Angel, but the intent—and my readers so far have picked up on this—is that the characters’ powers are what could be termed “spiritual gifts.” Just like some people are gifted with artistic, intellectual, musical, or athletic ability, the characters in Finding Angel are gifted with such Talents as Gate-making, Finding, or Transforming (one substance into another).
My hope from the beginning was to show that magic does have a place in Christian fiction. I was tired of the debate, the nit-picking, the semantics dance between the two Christian camps. Those who say the use of the words “witch” and “wizard” are enough to imply occultism. I purposely avoided those words in my novel so the magic is what is being judged, not some arbitrary word for the people who have that magic.
And then my novel published.
Two good friends mentioned to me that they have serious issues with the whole “magic” thing. One even went as far as to say she would avoid books that include telepathy and telekinesis because those things are too close to magic for her. I have to admit I was stunned. I simply didn’t see the connection between thinking an object into motion and occultism. I still don’t.
The other friend is a huge Disney fan, so I asked her if she kept her daughters from watching Disney movies. Well, of course not! Hm, but what about Cinderella and her wand-wielding fairy godmother? Or Flora, Fauna, and Meriweather from Sleeping Beauty? Or Tinkerbell and her magic pixie dust? (However, I would have been in favor of banning Tinkerbell after watching the original Disney Peter Pan, because that little fairy was shallow and vindictive.) She said she’d actually never thought of that.
The whole issue, to me, has always boiled down to the difference between fairy tale magic and biblical magic. Biblical witchcraft, as I’ve pointed out, is about taking powers that don’t belong to us, from dark places. It involves spirits, other beings from the supernatural realm, and our attempt to use their powers or control them in order to bring about some desired result.
Fairy godmothers and pixies—as well as Samantha, and Jeannie, and Glinda the Good Witch from The Wizard of Oz—have magic which is an innate ability. (And where do innate abilities come from?) These abilities are like any other abilities and work within the confines of the world the characters live in, rather than from drawing from spirits or another realm.
My belief is this: Fairy tale magic totally has a place in Christian fiction when it’s about doing good with the gifts we are given. It’s about us being more than the sum of our parts, more than just these human bodies we inhabit. It points to the idea that there is more than this world, and when we think of the existence of something beyond the physical realm our minds naturally turn to thoughts of God—at least that is what happens for me.
All that said, I still told my two friends that if they felt uncomfortable reading my novel I would understand. I don’t believe in forcing anyone to read something that they feel will harm them spiritually. But both ladies said they would read it because *I* wrote it. I know one of them has already, and she told me the magic did not offend her. (Actually, she now says she wants very much to own a dragon, thanks to Finding Angel…)
It really is all in how you use the magic in your fiction—but then, isn’t that true of anything God gives us?
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Thanks, Kat! And congratulations on your new release. To learn more about Kat Heckenbach, you can visit her website. Finding Angel is available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Smashwords.
Thanks so much, Mike, for letting me post here on deCompose, and share my thoughts on this topic :).
Great stuff, Kat. Thank you and congratulations on your book.
It is such a bother that the Christian invention: fictional magic, has to now be justified to its heirs.
Both alchemy and chemistry as we understand them in the modern sense, originate with Robert Boyle and other mission-focused theologians like him.
The fictional family tree of fantasy magic has its roots in the works of the Lord Dunsany.
In short, magic is ours, you pagan fools and rootless believers. The first sort are easily forgiven – they are naive and slaves to folly. The latter ought to be in line for the switch.
Or the wand.
The pagan who mistakes our magic as his own is merely following his highest authority: the flesh. The ignorant believer who makes the same mistake follows the same authority: his lowest.
To quote a practitioner of small magic (that which is the fading echo of Christ, not His blood): “Who is the fool? The fool or the fool who follows him?”
Kat: a good and gentle correction on your part, and one, I’m sure, is far more effective than mine. I’m just issuing the warning to those literally starving on the vine who have the intellectual dullness and literary audacity to pretend that magic isn’t part and parcel of the Resurrection of Our Lord – don’t try to play that card around me: I’ll light it on fire before it is safely out of your hand.
Ooh, very good points.
And you bring up something very important–the foolishness of “following.” So many who oppose magic in the Harry Potter books have never read them. They are going on the word of someone else–who likely has never read them. The mere mention of the word “magic” or “wizard” throws them into a tizzy and they don’t bother to educate themselves on what those words actually mean.
There is a book called Looking for God in Harry Potter, written by a man named John Granger. He forbade his (I believe seven) kids from reading HP until someone gave a copy to one of his kids. He insisted on reading it first before allowing her to. Now, he’s got several books and a website all about Harry Potter, the Christian symbolism, the true history of magic and alchemy. He’s a wonderful example of someone who realized he was blindly following, and when he educated himself he made it his mission to educate others and help them focus on God through reading fantasy like Harry Potter.
And remember while Harry Potter was being burned by the Witchfinders-General, Phil Pullman’s Golden Compass trilogy was sailing right through onto Children’s Literature Awards, Best-Seller Lists, Required Reading Lists — and even on the shelves of Christian School Libraries where Harry Potter was banned.
While the escorts are off depth-charging a false contact, the real torpedoes bore in from the other side of the convoy.
Robert Boyle was a 17th C chemist and missionary, yes, but alchemy is ancient–as ancient as the Egyptians and Chinese. Are you saying that because a missionary practices a “magical” art it’s okay? I’m not saying alchemy (that is, changing base metals into precious metals) in and of itself is wrong, but your argument makes no sense to me. If a missionary does something, then it’s okay?
Otherwise, I generally agree with you that magic is God’s, just as astrology charts and the zodiac belong to God. The symbols are his, but people use them inappropriately.
It always befuddles me when people have this knee-jerk reaction to magic in Christian fantasy, but then, like your friend, had no problem with it (or didn’t even THINK about it!) in Wizard of Oz or Cinderella. Those who want to ban/forbid Rowling would also need to include Baum, Lewis, and Grimm in their bans. Where is the outcry for all those classics? Would there be any fairy tales left at all for Christian children? Methinks there is some hypocrisy here.
Great post, Kat.
Thanks, Caprice. And yes, it has always frustrated me, too. For some reason, the uproar hit with Harry Potter, and I do think much of it had to do with the words “witch and wizard.” The term “fairy godmother” maybe feels more benign, and only the “bad guys” in Disney films are called witches? And great point about fairy tales–we all read them to our kids, but never think twice about the content. I’m more disturbed by nursery rhymes like “Rock-a-bye Baby”….
For some reason, the uproar hit with Harry Potter…
Maybe it was long enough since the last Moral Panic/Witch Hunt that the Kyle’s Moms had to look for a new Righteous Cause.
Twenty years before Harry Potter, it was Dungeons & Dragons.
Twenty years before D&D, it was E.C. Horror Comics.
What will be the next Satanic Wooppee Cushion We Must Save The Children From? The Next Cause to go to Holy War against? My Little Pony?
“Those who say the use of the words “witch” and “wizard” are enough to imply occultism.” What about them? This is a fragment, so I’m not sure what you’re saying. It’s a poor thing to demonize people who are trying to protect themselves or their homes from magic that may have no known roots. Where does Samantha get her power from? Do we care now that it’s wrapped up in the pretty paper of a comedy with a gorgeous woman? God is the creator of “magic”, but when dealing with magic in books, I have to take it on a case-by-case scenario. L. Frank Baum was a theosophist, which is a Luciferian or serpent-based religion (according to one of its founders, Blavatsky). So I’m a little skeptical of Baum’s magic–although I already know that not everyone who adheres to a religious order understands the tenets of the religion. But I’m still skeptical of his books. One of my daughters made it to about the sixth before she gave them up because they gave her a yucky feeling inside (I’ve never finished one because they bored me).
“Fairy tale magic totally has a place in Christian fiction when it’s about doing good with the gifts we are given. ” This is a naive belief, in my opinion. Who is giving the gifts, and to whom and why? Does the author give her insights into these things? Do I, as the reader, know where the author is coming from?
“Real” magic is superstition. Christians are no more beholden to superstition than we ought to be “creeped out” by Ba’al worship. These poor priests bow to a lump.
The only mature response to “real” magic is pity. As to Baum’s magic, it is, like the Force, a weak echo of Lewisian Deep Magic. Magic, apart from the Lord, eventually fades into the cold embers of the unstirred heart. The tragedy isn’t that it is magic, but it isn’t magic enough.
Where does Samantha get her powers from?
From the writers.
OK….I don’t know where Samantha gets her powers. The show never says. It does seem to imply that she just “has” them, that they are part of her. They are innate.
My little question of “where do innate powers come from?” is there to mainly show that if you have a story in which the Christianity is overt or implied or whatever, then the assumption can be made that those powers were woven into the person along with everything else–and must have come from God if the person is assumed made by God, and if God gave them the abilities then the abilities aren’t evil.
I would say that Bewitched is a show that never addresses theology in any way (as far as I remember) and therefore it would maybe just be seen as a genetic trait.
“and must have come from God if the person is assumed made by God, and if God gave them the abilities then the abilities aren’t evil.” That’s why I like to know the source. Thanks for answering.
You’re welcome.
And yet, deception is real. And so are the effects of following after false gods. I’m creeped out by Ba’al worship because it involved human sacrifice, which means the adherents weren’t simply bowing to a lump but were enslaved to dark spirits.
As far as Samantha goes, why do you think the writers wanted to make witchcraft cute and funny and middle class? The concept of the show is disturbing on so many levels. And just because I grew up with it doesn’t make it seem any more benign. It glamorizes witchcraft, which becomes okay if you’re a good witch (Samantha) rather than a bad witch who hates mortals (Samantha’s family).
Look, I’m not scared of others’ superstitions, or even of Satan’s power, but of deception.
“And just because I grew up with it doesn’t make it seem any more benign.”
That is true, Jill. There are a lot of things we grew up with that weren’t benign and being part of our childhood doesn’t make them benign. I simply wanted to use an example of something I saw as harmless–that was , to me and my life, harmless. The show didn’t make me want to run out and join a coven. It just made me think it’d be cool to wiggle my nose and make something float off the table.
And if it feels more dangerous to someone else, then that person needs to stay away from it. There are things I find offensive that don’t bother other people, too. I’ve been shown respect for that in the past by those who didn’t understand why I have issue with something. And I respect others, and definitely don’t expect everyone to agree with me.
You shouldn’t be scared of deception, either. You should, to put it quite plainly, trust in that which casts out all fear.
When I say “you,” I mean “we.” It is our duty, not to fear magic or demons or the occult or superstition or anything else.
Fear isn’t ours to have or hold on to. As we mature and understand this truth that there truly is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear.
It is good to understand signs of darkness and superstition, but the perfect Christian will never fear the empty hollows of deception.
The perfect Christian will freely use the things of this world to better express the will of his Lord.
If that’s magic and fairies, that’s magic and fairies.
Now, are any of us perfect? No. But that shouldn’t stop us from knowing the ideal.
Fearing Harry Potter and the Wizard of Oz and the trappings of magic is a form of necrophilia: we sinfully long for our old dead selves, who were enslaved to the things of this world, when trifles like magic and Ba’al were important things to believe in.
Now, if some author is running around writing books about magic in a serious effort to deceive kids that they can really learn magic, well, that’s just sad.
But more common, and more sad, is the poor idol-worshipping Christian who thinks by keeping Harry Potter out of the house, they are, like Van Helsing with a crucifix, keeping the nightmares at bay.
This is wholly separate from Christians who choose to avoid certain things for any reason their conscience dictates. But, without measurable, biblical grounds for counsel, Christians are well advised to not tell their brethren exactly what is allowed in the stories they right.
The Christian is at liberty, by the blood of Christ, to loose her pen.
The weak Christian is under no compulsion to approve or participate.
He just shouldn’t go out of his way to get in her way.
As a complete side note, I don’t even like the HP books, but I love his fans, and the object of their affection has provided me with, quite literally, uncountable opportunities to fellowship and share the Gospel, far surpassing any other context I’ve been in over the past decade.
And one further point: among those among HP who have heeded the call to Christ (whom I personally know), I know of none who have repented of Rowling’s books, and I see no sound biblical reason why they should have. I’m sure there’s a kid out there who is into HP because he’s jazzed about the occult, but I haven’t met him, yet.
“The weak Christian is under no compulsion to approve or participate.” So are you saying that strong Christians both approve of and participate in occultish books/themes, but only weaker Christians have a problem with these things? That is a bizarre stance to take.
And I’m a little confused, as well, because I never mentioned HP, but Baum, rather. Rowling isn’t a satanist, as far as I know, but Baum did join a Luciferian religious organization (gnosticism, really). Do I believe his books could hurt children? Maybe. I don’t know. Why wouldn’t the deceiver use media to his advantage?
It isn’t bizarre at all, even if it was my stance.
Was it bizarre for Christians to freely eat meat sacrificed to idols, meat that pricked the conscience of those who still held onto “bad feelings” and could not partake of liberty?
Baum’s religious whackery may influence his stories, and they may, in fact, be harmful. But it isn’t because the stories have magic in them, but bad themes.
Occult trappings really don’t have a measurable, repeatable effect on fiction. They are props for moving the story.
I know people who won’t watch movies with guns in them, as if guns are some, ahem, “magical” object that determine a story’s quality or theme. That’s their conscience, and they are welcome to it, and I would never watch a movie with guns in it in their presence.
It doesn’t make guns, as a prop in a film, a bad thing.
Same goes for magic, or faeries, or books on theosophy.
Here are bad things in fiction: unnecessary adverbs, themes that promote immorality (adultery is terrific, murder is happy, Godlessness is sane), and a lack of tension.
Making any attempt to classify types of books based on objects that exist in it (such as magic or occultism or whatever) and thus weed them out that way is silly.
I could name the best 10 books of the last 100 years, and each one of them could be disqualified, a priori, based on “objectionable objects!” That simply makes no sense. You are better off writing nothing.
That doesn’t mean that, for example someone whose conscience objects to portrayals of, say, family strife, should be forced to read or appreciate, say Ulysses. Nor should someone whose conscience goes to dark places in addressing racism be forced to read To Kill A Mockingbird?
Magic? No Tolkien for you.
Anxiety? No 1984.
Again, avoiding these things is fine. A person’s conscience is very important.
But there is a huge difference between avoiding and objecting. The person who objects to magic in books on any philosophical grounds doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
Avoid that which bothers you, and satisfy the conscience. Just don’t assume that an individual’s precious conscience is a plank that spans all minds.
If you’re trying to tell me that literature and entertainment don’t have an effect on our minds and spirits, then I can’t agree with you. Not to be banal, but “Things means things. If not, nothing means anything.” The problem with magic and the occult is not that it exists in literature, but the propensity to paint if with a happy brush. Witches only want to do good in the world. Vampires are our best friends and make great lovers and husbands. It’s really funny that demonic beings marry humans because it makes for a lot of good laughs due to comic errors. By the same token, books that glamorize adultery are equally sparkling. And can you imagine how cool it would be if someone were to write a book dealing with the positive aspects of racism? Our children should grow up believing in the rightness of a black woman brutalized and raped. And for those of you who can’t recognize sarcasm, yes, I’m being sarcastic.
Read what you want. I’ve never told anybody they can or can’t read anything. Read a good porn book if it makes you feel happy, but don’t tell me I’m superstitious if I believe it would not be good for your soul.
It’s disheartening to see you loading up all of your questions and objections that xdpaul looks like some obvious heretic. Yours is still an argument based on emotion and fear, not on truth, reason, or grace. Apparently you think that because his tolerance is higher, that means he will accept anything at all in literature. Even though he has clearly stated he has limits.
If you’re going to assume anyone who doesn’t avoid the same things you do must be pining for occultism and paganism, fine, but that is not a mark of maturity or reason. It makes no sense to state that any vampire who is a sympathetic character makes the book demonic, because that closes off the possibility of nuance or context. Maybe the writer established different rules of vampirism than what Bram Stoker wrote of, and the creature is not a servant of Satan. Some “good” vampires in literature seek redemption and want to cure their affliction, or at least don’t use it to take human life or worship dark powers. You would be hard-pressed to call such a character harmful to the spiritual life of a Christian, and your sarcasm is most unwelcome when you use it to paint such a broad brush and condemn the convictions of followers of Christ who do not line up with your personal sensibilities.
As a faerie tale scholar I think you have a bit of a flaw in your rationalisation of “fairy tale magic” as a harmless form.
What you call FTM you claim to be harmless because, unlike the magic forbidden in The Bible, the Fairies have magic as their innate ability and don’t rely on dark forces.
Problem is…faeries ARE themselves dark forces. The origin of Faerie and Fae is a world comparable to demons. Fae is to true pagan Witchcraft (or simply “Craft”) what Hell is to Christianity, and the Faeries–beings who hail from Fae–are the pagan equivalent of demons.
I don’t quibble with your overall take on magic in that I believe when used as a story device (as in Harry Potter) without direct ties to a realistic, extant Occult sphere, it’s a fine thing. Most fiction involves some sort of magic as it conjurs people who don’t exist in order to accomplish goals of entertainment or instruction. I am not so puritannical as to say all fiction should be forbidden.
But I sure wouldn’t rely on phrases like “Fairy Tale magic” in the apologetics for your work. Maybe you could try “Disney magic” or “fictional magic.”
Thanks, Katherine! I’m glad you can see my intent through the misuse of the word “fairy.” I didn’t know all that about the history of “Faerie” but in my mind there is a difference between fairy and faerie. What, ya’ll can’t read my mind?
Seriously, I do tend to think “Disney” or “fictional magic” when I say “fairy tale magic” and think of faerie magic as a bit more complex, but I didn’t realize it was close to pagan witchcraft. So the purposes of this post, I hope the readers do keep that in mind.
Thanks for the input!
“A world comparable to demons?” or do you mean “a world comparable to Ba’al worship?”
Ba’al doesn’t exist. He has no power. I’d argue that the fae are more akin to that belief than in some primordial realm of actual demons.
Besides, what’s wrong with having dark forces in books? Is it also wrong to have, say, a bank robber?
No. I mean a world comparable to demons. (Hint: You can tell that’s what I mean because that’s what I typed.)
Here’s a bit of a diagram:
{Celtic Paganism} {Christianity}
| |
“other” Place: Fae “other” Place: Hell
“others” that damage: Faerie “others” that damage: Demons
Sure, Christianity is real, while Celtic Paganism is a Shadow of the Real. So Faeries are fake(ish) but Demons are real. In either case, however, they are the agents of turmoil and chaos, employed by the forces antithetical to The Good.
Do Christians need to fear Faeries? Only inasmuch as a Faerie is a shadow construct depicting a sort of limited understanding of the concepts we now have clarified thanks to the Bible.
Also: “Ba’al” is one of those words that means MANY different things to many different people. To some people it actually does refer to Satan. So when you say “pshaw! Ba’al is no biggie!” you might be sadly mistaken.
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As to having dark forces in books, I have no problem at all with that, as long as the dark force is acknowledged as harmful instead of glamourised as sparkly and unconditionally loving.
Ooh, yay! Twilight dig :). That’s a-whole-nother topic, of course, but that book grates on me so much. Vampires and darkness aside, Twilight perpetuates the idea that it is a good thing to be *stalked* and that if a girl doesn’t have a boyfriend she is nothing. Oh, yes, and one should be whiny and annoying in order to make guys fall in love with you :P.
OK, sorry. Off-topic on my own blog post, but I cannot pass up an opportunity to jab at “that” book.
Katherine — agreed that much of faery folklore is dark and ominous in nature and that Irish faery folklore in particular emphasizes a hellish aspect to the fae and their realm. However, not all traditions — not even all Celtic traditions– regard faeries as dark forces of evil origin and intent, or propose a faery realm comparable to hell.
As I discovered in my research for my own faery books, Welsh faery folklore describes a tribe of virtuous and generous faeries living in a secret paradise where treachery and murder are unknown, and Cornish faery folklore also proposes the existence of benevolent and kind “Small People”. Some traditions hold that faeries are the forgotten children of Eve, while other suggest they are the spirits of virtuous pagans who died before Christ’s coming — both unbiblical ideas to be sure, but really not analogous to the role of demons in Christianity.
Tolkien’s essay “On Fairy Stories” and the references of Lewis and MacDonald to fairy tales/magic/stories also make plain that the connection of fairies to modern-day Wicca and pagan traditions or “dark forces” is by no means inevitable or necessary. Indeed the late 19th and early 20th century English tradition seems to have regarded fairies, fairy magic and the fairy realm as a good and lovely thing, as indicated by the tone of late 19th-century books like THE FAIRY-LAND OF SCIENCE by Arabella Buckley (a vicar’s daughter who states directly in her book that God is the Creator to whom all glory is due — but seems to have no shyness whatsoever about using fairies and fairy-land as an analogy).
It seems that like so many other things, the attitude of Christians to fairy folklore has swung back and forth over the centuries.
There are literally thousands of fairy folkways. While not every single one is analogous to demonry, I still contend that the fact that many–the majority–are makes the use of the term “fairy magic” less than desirable when attempting to argue for innocuousness.
I have very little problem with fantastic literature or fairy stories in general.
I’m a student of mythology and folklore as well. Faeries both Seelie and Unseelie are direct correlations by both Picts and Celts to explain the positive and negative spirits of the supernatural world. In short angels and demons. They don’t come from ‘Hell’ as this term’s origin is rooted in the Nordic belief structure. Hell is a term derived by the Norse to explain the Goddess of Nifelheim. It was borrowed for its underworld familiarity by Britons and translated into Angle/English to explain the plane of banishment that God has yet to create. Should we fear Faeries as Christians? No. Should we respect Faeries? Yes. They are perilous creatures prone to great acts of benevolence and more commonly malevolence. Christians are continually warned to respect and be prepared for our adversary the devil in all his forms. Should Christians avoid works portraying ‘Faeries’ and the powers they wield, of course not. We must be aware of the enemy and the powers they wield. I really think Christian writers should be writing Faery stories and exploring the questions of glamour/magic etc. And I heartily agree with your final statement by the way. Harry Potter, Oz, and even LotR are largely secular in their approach to this topic. Their is little to no spiritual/faith based/religious agenda to these works. They are works that cultivate imagination. Do these works open up a libne of spiritual conversation with my 5 year old daughter (she accepted Christ at 2). Yes. Harry Potter, Dorothy Gale and frodo are fun heroes to follow. Just like say- Perseus facing the gorgon, Medusa. It is my responsibility as a Christian parent to explain the ‘world’, sorcery and the occult to my child. Not the church. I don’t think keeping my daughter from seeing Harry Potter is going to strengthen her or prepare her for the wiles of Satan. I have had a blast talking fundamental Christian theology with my daughter. Kids are amazingly bright and tender to God’s Word. She understands the problem with ghosts, summoning spirits and calling on powers beyond Christ and thanks to Harry Potter she learned this difference in and entertaining way. Worldly fiction can be an asset of study for the Christian. I enjoyed world myths and folklore as a child. My parents realized the wonders in the ‘old tales’ and films like Star Wars. They didn’t disuade me from it- they just used it as a forum for discussion about the beauties of God’s Word. Christian Liberty helps us better appreciate the ‘old law’- which reveals the mind and sacrifice of Christ. This is a great topic and discussion by the way. Really enjoyed everyone’s view point on this matter. Now let’s get writing folks.
“Those who say the use of the words “witch” and “wizard” are enough to imply occultism.” That was meant to tail the sentence before it. Meaning, I am tired of people pointing at the words and saying that they are enough to consider something occult.
My point is that the meaning is different. For example, “shopping” for a car is not the same as “shopping” for a publisher. In the first case, shopping is something I do in order to pay someone for something I want. Shopping for a publisher, though, means I’m looking for someone who will be paying me :). In know that’s not exactly the same thing, but it illustrates the point. I’m not looking to buy a publisher when I shop for one, but can someone accuse me of doing so? “You’re not a legitimate writer because you’re ‘shopping’ for a publisher! You intend to pay for one!”
“Witchcraft” has changed in meaning since biblical times. And it carried different and distinct meanings now. It can mean the kind of thing you see in movies like “The Craft.” Or it can mean the wand-magic of the fairy godmother in Cinderalla. But they are oh-so different, and I can’t understand why people insist on lumping together as the same thing just because they are not, yet the English language is full of words with the same spelling but different meanings.
I’m not familiar with Baum, so I won’t tackle that, but I will say I DO agree with you that books need to be taken on a case by case basis. Actually, that is much my point here! I think generalizing ALL books based on the occult use of magic in certain ones is not fair.
And my view may seem naive, but what I mean is that magic CAN be used in Christian fiction if it is done the right way. In my novel I do NOT give the “source” of the characters gifts, but I didn’t want to be overt. So far, my Christian readers have had no problem picking up on my intent–maybe because I am open about my faith. Readers who don’t know my faith may not see it that way, but my point is the reader cannot assume a writer means “occult” when they use the term “magic.” Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. The reader does have the option, based on their world view, of believing the “source” of a character’s magic is God without being expressly told so.
Interesting blog post. Magic is something in which I’ve always had mixed feelings. I know for children, it can be kind of tricky, especially young children. I recall when I was a child, we watched the Disney mini-series called Escape and Return to Witch Mountain. My younger sister mentioned that she wished she had magical powers like that – my mom went ballistic! She told my sis that powers like that were not “right”. However, she’d let us watch the TV show! Go figure!
I think with children, we need to be sure we explain the difference in magical powers – they need to understand where the power comes from. Depending on how old the child is, it may be a concept that’s somewhat difficult for them to grasp.
BTW, I did read the first book in the Harry Potter series because everybody was making such a big deal over it. I also watched fairy tales and the Wizard of Oz on TV. I also watched Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie – never thought of these shows as occult-ish, although others may disagree.
Cecilia, you bring up a very good point here–it’s about what we are taught, too. If you tell kids from a young age that “magic”–meaning fictional magic, “fairy tale” magic by my definition–is not real, then they are going to know that it’s not real! I *wished* all the time I had powers like Samantha and Jeannie, but I *knew* they weren’t real. That’s why it’s called fantasy :). It’s playing pretend.
And I can’t imagine letting a young child watch anything that isn’t that pretend/fairy tale/fictional magic anyway. I wouldn’t want my kids watching movies like “The Craft” at a young age. When they are older, sure, but they’ll understand what it’s really about–and even *that* movie shows the *danger* of that kind of magic.
In a way, Twilight et al is even more insidious and destructive BECAUSE its Nonhuman Paranormal Lover comes in the form of an idealized hunky human and it’s set in a Real-World setting — a High School in a town in Washington State. It’s so Real in setting and appearance that there’s not far to go to suspend disbelief to the point you start thinking EDWARD (sparkle sparkle) IS real and just waiting for You, Dear Reader, to be his Bella.
And while Harry Potter was being burned at the stake by the Witchfinders-General, Golden Compass was sailing right through onto the shelves of school libraries. Even CHRISTIAN School Libraries.
Every 20 years or so, the Kyle’s Moms have to go on a new Crusade for Righteousness (“We Must Protect The Children, The Children, The Children”). Twenty years before Harry Potter, it was Dungeons & Dragons. Twenty years before D&D, it was EC Horror Comics. What’s gonna be next? My Little Pony?
I totally agree on The Golden Compass thing. I read those books before I knew about the author or his intent with them. Or, I should say, most of them. I quit only a chapter or two into the third one. Talk about God-hating. Yet more people freaked out over Harry Potter because of magic than The Golden Compass with its overt anti-Christian message.
I do think word on that one has spread, but it grates me that public schools will insist on teaching tolerance of all sorts of things that go against biblical morality, yet a *hateful* book like that–one that is admitted by the author to be for the sole purpose of trying to squash Christianity out of the minds of children–is on their reading lists.
In one of his author’s interviews, Phil Pullman thanked J.K.Rowling for taking all the heat and giving him clear sailing.
I like this description of Tinkerbell. While a minor character, she is fully realized. Yes, she’s mercurial – that’s what I like about her, her absolute selling out to whatever emotion has gripped her at the moment: “Though sometimes ill-tempered, spoiled, and very jealous and vindictive (getting the Lost Boys to shoot arrows at Wendy), at other times she is helpful and kind to Peter. The extremes in her personality are explained in-story by the fact that a fairy’s size prevents her from holding more than one feeling at a time, so when she is angry she has no counterbalancing compassion.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_Bell
Hah! Thanks Johne :). I didn’t know about size thing, and how it prevents her from holding more than one emotion at a time. Too funny. I just remember her looking at her rear end in the mirror and getting all bent out of shape because she thought it was too wide. I thought, “Now there’s a great role model for girls!” (rolls eyes)
I laughed at that moment, I thought it rang true. We see the same moment when Helen Parr (aka ElastiGirl) walked past a mirror, stopped, and did the same thing. She even sighed. Guys suck in their guts, gals check their hips. As I said, those moments ring true to me.
(This YouTube clip shows it three times, I assume for juvenile male appreciation. It’s a funny moment, in context. It’s creepy when repeated, and creepiER when slowed down.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Ti3Pq2r3s&feature=related
The thing I never understood about that scene with ElastiGirl is that, um, she’s elastic–can’t she make her hips any shape she wants? I suppose it would take effort and that the shape she is must be her “default” but still :P.
Telepathy and Telekinesis are real. So are ghosts. But the question is, where’s that power coming from? When you say “your friends EVEN had a problem w/telepathy and telekinesis,” I think you’re judging them for their convictions.
Christians have different grasps on the supernatural. Some are more easily terrified by things they can’t explain. Does that mean they need to read paranormal fiction just to get a grip? No, it means they need to guard what they read EVEN MORE, because it’s an easy stronghold for satan to use to make them fearful.
Also, on “Bewitched,” the idea is that she’s a WITCH. The Bible is very clear about witches. “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” (I believe, didn’t look it up).
With ANY genre in writing, we, as authors, need to understand and accept that not everyone (and certainly not every CHRISTIAN) is going to like our stuff. Because paranormal fiction IS NOT God’s Word, it’s possible that some people need to avoid that genre, though not the topic. Of course, there were witches/magicians/ghosts in the Bible. But they just need to know what the Bible had to say about it, not what Christian author’s “takes” on it are. Some might be offended by Amish romance (I AM). Some might be offended by dancing.
Give room for Christian liberty both ways. You might not have a compunction against magic, but please don’t advocate that every Christian should be okay with it.
And xd, Ba’al did exist. He had a name. He was a demon. You might not agree with me, but read about demons in the Bible, and when God said when they sacrificed, it was to demons (like Molech). Don’t you just know that Satan loves when people kill babies to satisfy him or his forces? And where do you think those Ba’al prophets got their power? Magic is real, and so is paganism. And it’s not about worshipping God. I’d be interested to know more about your beliefs, xd.
I understand your “fairy tale” kind of magic, Kat, and it making a broader statement for spiritual gifts. But, as Christians, we have to tread lightly and cover those books in prayer while we write them. I’m sure you already know that! Interesting post.
Heather, I didn’t mean to judge my friend. I meant only that to me the idea of telekinesis and telepathy are more scientific, not paranormal, and are of a whole different idea than “magic” in a fantasy novel. I DO understand being afraid of “real” things that are unexplained. And I did tell both friends that I did *not* want them to read my book if they felt uncomfortable with it. As I said in the post, I would NEVER tell someone to read something that *they* feel is spiritually harmful. Their line in the sand, not mine.
I only ask that I not be told I’m some kind of heathen or not a real Christian because I read an write fantasy. I see the two kinds of magic as nothing even remotely related. Your comment about Samantha being a witch is exactly what I mean. The word “witch” is being used in reference to Samantha in an entirely different way than it was used in the Bible.
And yes, I have prayed about my novel and feel that it is something God has placed in my heart.
I agree, Kat. I think telekenesis and telepathy fall into the realm of Science-Fiction. While I believe it is squarely a ‘pretend’ concept used in fiction it can also be argued that humans only use about 10% of our God given mental capacity. Who knows what Adam and Eve could accomplish mentally? It would make for a great speculative story. I agree that attributing these concepts wholly to Satan/demons may be a bit of a leap.
Heather, do you check under your bed every night for DEMONS?
Afraid SATAN is going to slip his Woopee Cushion under your butt every time you sit down?
Because I’ve had BAD experiences with self-anointed Witchfinders-General wannabes finding Satan and the Occult under every bed and you’re sounding a lot like them.
Hey there Headless, nope, I’m not checking for demons and Satan everywhere, just trying to exercise the gift of discernment.
And I’ve had some bad experiences with people who DENY that there’s a Satan or demons at all. I’ll chalk this up as one of them. Or do you really believe Satan exists?
Nowhere in any of my posts did I say to FEAR Satan or magic or witchcraft. But being blissfully accepting of everything of that ilk is foolish, as was discussed in “The Golden Compass” discussion. I’m also not personally attacking Kat, as you seem to be personally attacking me.
I’ve not felt personally attacked by Heather at all. Let’s not comment here with remarks that cross that line, okay?
The point of my post was to show my side of things, but I knew going in there would be opposing opinions. And this is the kind of topic where minds aren’t going to be changed quickly, if at all. And definitely not by finger-pointing.
also, xd, just wondering if you could clarify this quote, “those who have the intellectual dullness and literary audacity to pretend that magic isn’t part and parcel of the Resurrection of Our Lord – don’t try to play that card around me.”
Are you saying Jesus’ resurrection was magic?
You bet. I know of no better expression of a miracle.
Definition: “Magic is the claimed art of manipulating aspects of reality either by supernatural means or through knowledge of occult laws unknown to science.” “Claimed art” and “laws unknown to science” are kind of key. God knows all the laws and He can operate within or without those laws (thus, the Resurrection). And “claimed art” indicates something’s faked or even manipulated. In my opinion, saying the world is “magical” is taking away the power of the fact that it’s controlled by God and attributing those things to a nebulous force.
Mike, God is definitely all-powerful and can shut down anything at any time. That said, He has given Satan power here on earth. If we pretend demons (Ba’al) and ghosts and witchcraft don’t exist or are harmless, we’re playing right into his grabby hands. “Screwtape Letters” goes into this willful denial in some depth, as I recall.
So YES, let’s read and write paranormal fiction, by all means (I wrote a book on ghosts). Let’s just be very careful the message we’re trying to send out and make sure it lines up with Scripture in the process. I think we’re all on the same page there.
Heather, I think this comment is in response to mine a little further down. I’m definitely not “pretend[ing] demons (Ba’al) and ghosts and witchcraft don’t exist or are harmless.” The Bible explicitly warns against and forbids them. Where I feel the “anti-magic” people go astray is to demonize the magic (formulas, incantations, objects, etc.), as much, if not more than, the purveyors. Which is why they then over-react to wizards, broomsticks, wands, etc. in fiction.
Take the case of Moses’ encounter with the Pharaoh’s magicians. Both sides produced, more or less, the same “magic,” turning sticks into snakes. Question: Is is wrong to turn sticks into snakes? Answer: It can’t be because Moses did it! The problem wasn’t with the “magic” (i.e., stick charming), but with the intent, motivations, and allegiances of those who wielded it. That’s the point I’m driving at. Sorcerers aren’t bad because they can levitate, but they can thumb their nose at God while they do it. I believe we’ve developed a culture that worries way too much over the objects / patterns / forms of magic (broomsticks, black cats, wands, etc.), rather than the heart of it.
I agree that for a little girl to pick up a princess wand doesn’t mean she’s headed into evil. It means nothing. But some things MEAN something–they’re a doorway to something greater. Chants, spells, crystal balls (for the purpose of fortune-telling), Ouija boards, all these things MEAN something to the person using them. They’re trying to get closer to the Evil One. And I don’t think Christians need to be messing around w/stuff like that.
Even objects and locations can be imbued with evil, because of what they’ve been used for (or the number of people who’ve died there, like the Tower of London filled with its “ghosts”). For example, I don’t think we’d want to handle the knobs that turned on the showers in the Nazi death camps. Because of what they were used for, they represent evil. It’s not going to kill me to touch it, but do I want to do it? No way!
I mean no offense by this, but you are being superstitious.
God Himself describes idols as empty things, demons as subject to His will, and objects as nothing capable of darkness.
Darkness is in the hearts of men. Darkness is real. Evil is real. Satan is real.
The common thread? Personality. Personhood. Satan is a real person with real motives and intentions. Bad ones, obviously.
But so are men.
The fear of objects is a pagan holdover – an old explanation by the godless for evil.
Earthquakes aren’t evil. Gunshot wounds aren’t evil. Murdered children aren’t evil. Non-living objects don’t possess evil, though their form will necessarily be affected by evil.
Magic isn’t evil. Writing about it, inherently, is not evil.
Frank Baum may have been evil, but it is superstitious to say his books are evil.
XD, I think I made it pretty clear that I wouldn’t be AFRAID of said objects. I would just be discerning enough not to want to seek them out. I wouldn’t say that objects could be possessed, but objects could be used by Satan to mess you up, just like drugs or alcohol. The Ark of the Covenant was surely holy and not to be casually touched because of the Spirit of God in it, and it was an OBJECT. Ouija boards and things of that nature serve as conduits for spirits.
I didn’t say writing about magic is EVIL. I said it’s not to be taken lightly. I did say witchcraft, in all its guises, is EVIL. Because God says it. So I agree with Him. You can write about it, but as a Christian, I have to decide if I’m comfortable reading about it. And don’t tell me I’m “silly” if I don’t.
Go to any tribal people in Africa, ask them about witch doctors. They know that those spells and chants and potions DO things–they’re connecting that witch dr. with evil spirits. Oddly enough, I just talked to my friend from Africa recently, and ghosts are NOT looked on as kindly spirits over there. They’re an understood evil. In this country, we give ourselves doses of the supernatural that we can “handle” and “control.” Real evil takes many forms and it’ll seep in every which way it can, from violent, bloody images to pornography, to hauntings. And we’re responsible for GUARDING our minds. That’s Biblical, too–read up on spiritual warfare and putting on the armor of God.
Not sure if you’re a Christian, but if you are, I’d imagine you and I have vastly differing spiritual gifts. I’m all for Christian liberty. But some things aren’t. Some things are manifestly anti-Christian. And paganism, witchcraft and the occult are. I’m not lumping fantasy in there. And I’m not saying you can’t write about such things. We need MORE books about these topics, but always from GOD’S POV.
Nice talking w/you and that’s about all I have to say–I think we both know pretty squarely where we stand on this and that we’re not going to change our minds!
Heather,
You wrote that people who use chants, crystal balls, and ouiji boards are actively trying to get close to the Evil One? OK, from our perspective, yes they are. From their perspective, no they aren’t. From their perspective, they’re just trying better their lives. Am I defending their practices? No. And like you, I would be one of the first to say that Christians should DEFINITELY stay away from that stuff. My wife and I went to Savannah recently on vacation, and I told her my own theory for why Savannah is so “haunted”–you invite the dark forces in, they tend to be all too happy to come in.
My theory for why New Age religions and magic are making a comeback: people find the church too condemning; the church has become very talented at NOT passing judgment on its own members and thereby spurring them on to greater holiness and love, and all TOO good at passing judgment on nonbelievers and expecting them to act like Christians before they even believe. My wife knows a woman who is a practicing Wiccan; she became this after her “Christian” husband was being abusive to her; she talked with her brother who is a pastor, and the brother said she wasn’t being submissive enough. What she really needed was for there to be some Godly men in her life who would have been happy to “talk” with her husband for her.
Hi Nathan–
I”m with you on that–that’s kind of why I was participating in this conversation. As a Christian, we do need to hold each other accountable. Maybe everyone I’m talking with on here is not, but I do think the majority are. So we’re supposed to think about what we believe and why. I’m glad for blogs like this, where you can explore your faith, ask the deeper questions, and figure out what you can/cannot personally agree with. It makes you that much stronger when talking w/non-Christians. I’m not going to crawl on the ground and act like I don’t believe what I believe about the Bible, just to reach others. I do believe in taking a different approach w/NON-believers. If this were a NON-believer blogspot, I wouldn’t have gotten into this conversation, b/c I know they’re not going to agree w/my convictions.
Hope that clarifies what I was thinking. I understand they’re using crystal balls/ouija/Wicca to get to something greater, and it breaks my heart. However, I’m not going to use the same demon-reaching tools to try to minister to them. I’m going to try to find some other common ground.
I’m sure we’ve all been burned by legalistic Christians trying to ignore the concept of Christian liberty. But I think we often don’t see another big threat–ineffective Christians who don’t know what they believe or why. Who wants a belief system like that? It’s not appealing either, when you think and act just like the godless.
So I think we’re on the same page here!
Sort of like the Ark of the Covenant concept. I can dig. The ‘law’ guides through wisdom and liberty in Christ prepares us to face the Truth head on. Nothing wrong with facing evil if you are prepred through Christ.
Heather, I agree with you! We must be careful not to confuse the world or baby Christians. Satan is the master of deception and he likes to live in shades of truth, he likes to blur the lines so we can easily justify our own fleshly desires.
Spiritual Warfare is very real. A great book on it is “Ascent from Darkness: how Satan’s soldier became God’s Warrior” by Michael Leehan (I think I spelled his name correctly). It is a first hand account of how Satan deceived him and how in turn he deceived many Christians. He knew the Bible better than most Christians and would twist the word of God to confuse those uneducated in scripture. Satan uses people within the church. Michael’s account is chilling in its clarity into the mind of a man who worshiped the father of lies.
After Mike Warnke, my attitude on any such autobiography is “Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Levels of Evidence.” And the more spectacular and Juicy (TM) the claims (children pulled through the bunghole of a dead cow, anyone?), the more above-and-beyond extraordinary the levels of evidence required.
Just one more thing–Kat, you said you’d let your daughters watch “The Craft” when they got old enough. Really? You’d let them watch something openly glorifying witchcraft? I don’t care how you explain how wrong it is, there’s some point where you have to say, as the parent, “I’m not opening the door to that stuff in my house.” It AFFECTS kids. It has a message it’s trying to promote, one that’s categorically against Christianity. You may remember “Bewitched” through the rosy glasses of childhood (yes, I loved “Wonder Woman,” but now I see all those feminist messages it shoved down people’s throats), but I think if you watched it on a regular basis now, you might be surprised what you see.
I think that we have to be the gatekeepers for our kids. I’m a video game fanatic, but you also have to be very careful what messages are sneaking in w/the games and discriminate. There is a prince and a power of the air (and this world).
May I ask if you have watched “The Craft”? I have. A couple of times. It doesn’t glorify witchcraft at all, actually. It shows the *danger* of it. People get hurt. The “witches” end up the bad guys. The one girl even goes insane. Is that glorifying?
As for Bewitched–I didn’t see it through rose colored glasses. Even as a kid I was intelligent and pessimistic. I thought Darren was a bit of a jerk for not letting Samantha use her powers–not allowing her to be who she was. Controlling husband who put himself and his dork of a boss before his wife.
Messages abound in movies and TV shows, and they aren’t always what we agree with. We do have to learn to discern. Even cartoons–like The Incredibles–send messages. Some good, some bad. But I don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Kat,
I’m not trying to nitpick with this, so please don’t take this that way, but I’m curious about your interpretation of the Craft. In the end, when Neve Campbell used magic to ultimately defeat the three who were after her and then used the magic to scare off the two who didn’t go into the hospital…that to me suggested that witchcraft makes a really cool way to defend yourself from those who would do you harm…. The movie to me suggested that witchcraft is powerful and can be dangerous, but if used properly it can benefit you. Your thoughts?
Good question, Nathan. I’ll have to nitpick first, since it wasn’t Neve Campbell’s character that did that :). It was the character played by Robin Tunny, the character of Sarah.
If you notice in the movie, Sarah doesn’t do anything to “gain” her powers. She has them already. The woman who owns the shop they go into calls her a “natural witch.” Her mom had those powers, too, which implies a genetic source.
The other girls, however, have NO powers whatsoever. They are wanting to GET powers, and they turn to (what I assume to be a demon) Manon. The shop owner even warns the girls about what they seem to be thinking about getting into.
In the end, Sarah uses one kind of fire to fight another kind of fire, in my opinion. But she wins because her powers are genuine–innate–and used for good. (Think about Mike’s example of Moses vs the Egyptian sorcerers. They did the exact same things, but for different reasons and with different sources for their powers.) The other girls lose because the power they are tapped into isn’t something that belongs to them. I like that the movie shows how that kind of magic can turn against the supposed user.
Well answered and touche 🙂 I got them completely confused in my head. Thanks for being so gracious about it 🙂
You’re welcome, Nathan. 😀
Agreed, Kat. ‘The Craft’ is truly an anti-witchcraft movie. Faruza Baulk’s character makes the seductive lure of witchcraft very unattractive by the end. In addition the reprecusions on the girls after they conjure their spells should detract most curious dabblers.
Very good article and well-written, pretty well educational, gets me thinking of a debate in another view.
Thanks, Jason!
Definition of witch: Someone who practices witchcraft. How did Samantha NOT practice witchcraft when she did her magic? They were not portrayed as “tricks” on the show, but real magic. There is no good witch/bad witch dichotomy out there. Witchcraft is witchcraft, whether it goes by the name of Wicca or sorcery, whatever. There always has to be a source for the magic. I think in your book, you’re saying the source is God, so I see the point you’re trying to make. However, in the Bible, miracles are never referred to as “magic.” Magic was not ever something acceptable. I just don’t like the idea of trying to “church up” something that the Bible’s very clear about. Not to say I wouldn’t read your book, since you prayed about it. I’m just saying not everyone will agree w/that viewpoint on witchcraft. There’s no HARMLESS witchcraft.
I’ve always viewed Samantha as a Fantasy construct, especially when she twitched her nose to perform a spell instead of blood sacrifice or something darker. Her magic came across as mechanical rather than spiritual.
Ooh, Johne, I like that! “Mechanical” magic. Maybe *that* is the term I need instead of “fairy tale.” Cool :).
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree, b/c your opinion that Darren was a “jerk” for not letting Samantha use her powers illustrates that the show made witchcraft something acceptable, even desirable, because it was just “the way she was made”.
And yes, “The Craft” and “The Secret Circle” and shows like that glamorize witchcraft, because the girls are well-dressed and powerful. Not to mention it’s usually VERY “how-to” on how to actually cast spells and summon spirits. Some girls are totally attracted to power, thus the success of Wicca. So I WOULD throw that baby right out with the bathwater, for my girls’ sake. Some images (like The Exorcist) only have to be seen once for them to get burnt into your brain and scare you the rest of your days.
Yes, Heather, I do think we’ll have to agree to disagree :). We can surely do that. As a mother, your goal is obviously to raise your kids in a way to make them strong, faith-filled, and safe. I agree with that! We may have different ideas about how to go about that, but I can respect totally where you are coming from and am glad to see you wanting the best for yourself and your family.
Not following your comparison of the ‘Exorcist’ as acceptable versus ‘The Craft’ as unacceptable. Both portray an ugly portrayal of demonic/otherworldly power. Your flirting with the ‘baby with the bath water scenario’ or using a double standard. Also Wicca is a cult very different from the Biblical definition of ‘witchcraft’. Both are wrong in their intent, but God defines a witch as a necromancer. A communer and summoner of familiar spirits (demons). I don’t think Samantha was a Necromancer. I agree that the intent of the shows writers was ‘mechanical’ as suggested. I t was a hereditary super power that enabled the show’s main character to stand out from say- June Cleaver. Harry Potter does cross blur this line with its frequent use of divination, components and other familiar summoning rituals. This may be more of the cause of debate with Rowling cersus say Baum. We do not see Glinda summoning or communing with spirits in the books. (I’m currently illustrating this series so I have to read all 16 of them.) The term witch is a title of territorial rulership. Oz is defined by rulers of power- much like Narnia. It is simply a ‘word’ used to denote authority of rulership. We never see the Wicked Witch of the West summoning demons. She enslaves Win Kins, Flying Monkeys, wolves, trees and crows to work her evil. The love and strength of Dorothy’s friends cast down these perilous agents. Oz is love and loyalty versus selfish ambition and hate. nuff said.
Great conversation. Frankly, this is not a subject I’ve thought a lot about. Let me see if I can distill my thoughts. There is no Power outside God. Even Satan needed permission to attak Job. Thus, God and Satan aren’t yin and yang. We must resist framing Satan and occult forces as somehow outside God’s control. As we should resist seeng magic as a neutral formula or natural law that can be developed independant of its Maker. Or to put it another way, can a spell be spun so big God can’t undo it? The world of magic is real because God has created a Magical world. Even the forces of evil derive their existence, inextricably, from God. Which is why He can undo them at the end of the age. All that to say, I do think this ultimately comes down to a matter of who one serves and how they use that power.
Glad we’ve brought something new for you to ponder, Mike :). And I agree very much with that last statement! Thanks again for letting me post here. I think the discussion has been very good.
I think, if done well and thoughtfully, there is as much room for the fantastic in Christian fiction as there is for romance
But I know a lot of Christians wrestle with attraction to the occult. I completely respect their desire to give it a wide berth in their homes.
That, to me, in no way diminishes God’s sovereignty.
Just because your father is a fireman doesn’t mean that you should play with matches.
Good thoughts, Kat. I recently reviewed Dave Hardy’s Magnus Kir (you Finding Angel is on my TBR shelf!) and he had a few things to say about magic as well at http://residentialaliens.blogspot.com/2011/10/metaphysics-of-magic.html
Over the past 15 years or so, I have seen certain parts of Christianity distance themselves from Halloween. It used to be just a fun thing for kids to do, and we all did it. Then suddenly ghosts and such and the pagan origins of some of it were taboo. Why? And what does this have to do with magic? The anti-Halloween trend began right in the midst of the spiritual warfare movement that exploded in the 1990s. Anything precieved to be occult, whether it really was or not, became taboo.
The problem with any mention of magic, I think, also came out of this.
Sure, there are extremes like television making witchcraft look like a “fun” lifestyle. Though many of those shows aren’t appropriate for kids for other reasons. The spiritual warfare movement also had its excesses. People who don’t like carving pumpkins were neck deep in demonology.
Some people won’t even touch “Christian” fantasy, but most have an inconsistent standard of what is “bad” or “good” fantasy or magic. I think that is a sign that many haven’t thought this subject through very carefully.
I do think many people have an inconsistent standard of bad and good when it comes to fantasy and magic. I’ve seen that a lot. Sometimes, though, I think it has to do with what strikes a nerve or what makes you feel uncomfortable. Certain books/movies/images/whatever may slide right past and not affect you, but then something does, and suddenly you start taking a closer look at things. Sometimes that’s a good thing, because it helps you firm up your definitions–and sometimes it just muddies the waters.
The anti-Halloween trend began right in the midst of the spiritual warfare movement that exploded in the 1990s. Anything precieved to be occult, whether it really was or not, became taboo.
Not just “Spiritual Warfare” (which these days sounds like Ritual Magick, commanding spirits and setting wards to the point some bloggers call it “Christian Witchcraft”).
The Satanic Panic of the Eighties, a Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory where Satan was personally directing a Vast Occult Conspiracy that was Everywhere outside the four walls of your church. Including D&D and Cabbage Patch Dolls.
Sparked by the Testimony (TM) of one Mike Warnke, self-alleged Former High Priest of Satan (and privy to the Inner Workings of The Conspiracy) — who was exposed as a complete fraud by Cornerstone around ten years later.
DD–I also think it’s a sign that people haven’t thought their stances through carefully when they say there’s some kind of difference between “mechanical magic” and “bad magic.”
Also, ALL kids didn’t ever “do” Halloween. There’s always been a backlash against Halloween since it came from the Samhain roots of the celebration of the dead…still celebrated by pagans today.
In the case of Baum, I find it interesting that he had a “Good Witch” and an “Evil Witch.” Same in “The Princess and the Frog”–there’s a “Good” voodoo woman and a “Bad” Voodoo guy. Hmm. Let’s think through the message there. Again, don’t criticize your Christian peeps for following where God leads. If fantasy causes your brother to stumble, don’t force-feed him fantasy. Or say he’s ill-informed for not liking the same things you do.
It’s true that some have always disliked Halloween, and that’s fine. Not many Christians know the “Christian” side of Halloween, however. The name “Halloween” comes from “All Hallow’s Eve,” a Christian holiday created, along the All Saint’s Day afterwards, to replace the pagan celebrations. Not much remembered today, though many in Christianity still list these as church “holidays.” Some Protestants probably see it as a “Roman Catholic” holiday, though a number of mainstream Protestant denominations still recognize it. I wonder, considering the recent growth in paganism, perhaps Christians should reestablish these days as an answer to them?
Nowhere do I imply or state anything regarding force-feeding fantasy, etc., if that’s what you were getting at.
DD, thanks for sharing your thoughts–maybe we’ll meet on some future posts and be on the same page! But on the topic of good witchcraft, probably not. I’m not saying I boycott Halloween–I don’t, though it’s not my fave holiday. Then again, neither is Columbus day (Vikings were here first!). And let me clarify that I read fantasy and I’ve written a paranormal fiction novel, so I’m not anti-everything. Enjoyed the conversation and we’ll talk again sometime, perhaps!
Not sure that there is “good witchcraft.” What I am saying is that “magic” in a book doesn’t automatically make it bad.
We are on the same page about the Vikings, however! Wrote a little nonfiction on them.
Haha–yes, I wrote an entire, as-yet-unpublished novel on them (you know Gudrid from the sagas?). But no one wants to read historical fiction from that era–Regency is key now. Plus, I wrote first-person, present POV. Not popular for historical fiction. Sigh. Yes, we’ll both boycott Columbus Day. Hee.
Mechanical is a term for ‘designed’ magic for the purpose of a plot. It’s wholly make believe. Think of it as purely aesthetic or visual. Spice to color up the soup. Nothing deep about- accept if you feel so inclined to project fear and misunderstanding on it.
Kat, Some good thoughts here. I reviewed Dean Hardy’s “Magnus Kir” (your “Finding Angel” is on my TBR shelf, promise 🙂 and he wrote a short essay on my RA blog – “The Metaphysics of Magic: Writing Christian Fantasy from a Christian Worldview.”
He grapples with this issue: The question the writer should ask is not, “Should or shouldn’t there be magic in my story,” but rather the question should be, “How does the magic in this story work, especially if there is no explicit God figure in the tale?”
Interested in your thoughts on the rest of his argument if you get a chance.
Just hopped over and read it, Lyn :). I particularly liked this quote:
“But if the magical powers or the story as a whole are bound in a different reality, the question above makes little sense. In a speculative realm what we may call “magic” may be as normal as simple physics. No one cried, “Foul!” when Gandalf’s staff illuminated, or Lucy’s cordial healed Reepicheep. Why? Because the reader realized that things of that world were very different from ours, and that no supernatural being (good or evil) was necessary for the magic to take place.
The question should then be reformulated pragmatically for the reader, “For what is this magical power used? Something good, or something evil?” For the source of the magic is no longer the question. The action is as normal as any other action in that world. The inquiry then turns to the motivation and consequence of the magical deed.”
That is something that no one has brought up–the idea that fantasy is often in an alternate universe, or maybe an alternate version of this universe. Or even if it’s what seems like *this* world, it’s really an aspect of this world we didn’t know existed. And therefore, things happen because that is “normal” and it’s all obeying the laws of physics, just not the ones we are used to. Thus follows the logic that it’s not the magic that’s evil but rather how it is used.
Thanks, Lyn!
This is my last reply, I promise! I’ve got to be writing on my own novel! I definitely understand the alternate reality and the acceptance of magical things that way. BUT, like I said above, there is NO SUCH THING as “good voodoo” or “good magic” in the world as we know it. Saying it’s how it’s used (in this world) is very pragmatic–like “if it works, just do it.”
No more fussing for me! I know we’re sisters in Christ, and we should be exhorting each other to good works. I’m not slamming on your book, Kat. In fact, I think it sounds good. I just think we really need to think these things through Biblically and found all our viewpoints in the Word.
Best wishes on your book!
Again, we’ll have to agree to disagree about much of this. I do think we are on the same page with some things :). And thank you for the wishes on my book!
Quote from C.S. Lewis
“Do you think I am trying to weave a spell? Perhaps I am; but remember your fairy tales. Spells are used for breaking enchantments as well as for inducing them. And you and I have need of the strongest spells that can be found to wake us from the evil enchantment of worldliness which has been laid upon us for nearly a hundred years.”
I love this quote!!!!!
Oh, yes, that’s an awesome quote! Thanks for sharing :).
Awesome, awesome, awesome. I really enjoyed reading this post and finding out that I wasn’t alone in making similar distinctions in my own work. I can’t wait to read your book now that I know about it, I’ve wish-listed it on Amazon and can’t wait to see how this plays out. I’m excited to find there’s a whole community of believers out there who enjoys psionics, magic, or something similar in their fiction but are still profoundly Christian as well.
Oh, Carmen, thanks so much!!
And yes, there are a lot of us out there. I think, like with other things that are either taboo or controversial in the CBA, you might find that many Christian authors who love magic in their stories go the secular route for publishing with books that are not overtly Christian. But there are lots and lots of Christian readers out there who read books like Harry Potter (and mine) because they see that distinction.
Thanks for stopping by!
Great article Kat (and now that I’ve formulated my reply, I find I need to apologize for its length… but I’d be sad to delete all my hard work. And I pray my logic is comprehensible) 🙂
One thing I’ve noticed is that people who tend to broad lump everything that might possibly be twisted into evil into some box of verboten (and please note I’m not aiming this at anyone on this blog post, but rather speaking of family members of mine who even roll their eyes that I’ve written a story with elves in them, never mind that there isn’t any ‘magic’. It hurts.) tend to struggle with compassion and mercy and struggle with how to process their own pet sins in relation to God.
I have total respect for someone who says ‘ You know, I can’t drink/watch/read that, because it’s an area I struggle with, but I recognize it (whatever it is) is not inherently sinful of its own accord.’ I have an area in my own life where I have to say that. But the people I know who blackball whole blanket areas of anything (obsessing if the meat was sacrificed to idols anyone?) seem to have an inability to process life and sin with that level of maturity that tests all things. If something is in their black list then it should be on everyone else’s black list too and if it isn’t then they tend to judge that persons relationship to God as being in want (which is also a sin, btw).
And before I get jumped on, yes, there are things we all need to be active in avoiding… the tendency or allure toward sexual sin gets us all regularly in trouble on some level, whether it be straight up lust or simply inspiring dissatisfaction with what God’s given us… but that doesn’t make sexual desire, nor the enjoyment of, nor the specifics of position or any other factor of said desire evil so long as you are operating within the confines of a God honoring relationship. What DOES make it sin is when we covet, when we lust for dominance or power in it, when we look for self worth in flesh instead of in God, when we desire satisfaction more than to honor God’s loving direction and the temple of our bodies and our minds. THAT is the sin.
‘But Wait!’ you say, ‘The analogy is no good because God gave us sex, but not inhuman power!’ Are you sure about that?
The base sin at the root of sexual sin is the same as the base sin of Biblically defined ‘problematic’ witchcraft. The lust for power not naturally inherent to the physical body, the desire for control and manipulation not granted, the lust for satisfaction at the cost of self and the lives and spiritual well fare of others. The glorification of man. It all has to do with us as mortals sinking to the most desperate, lowest denominator (demons) to try and wrest control and power from God and make it ours. Sin. Clearly.
But that isn’t to say all inexplicable power is demonic… to think so is to give the Devil far, far too much credit and is to ignore much of scripture. God clearly and repeatedly channels inhuman power through mortals at His discretion. All. Over. Scripture. . Samson’s ‘magic’ hair, Water to blood, the parting of the Red Sea, Water from a rock (this one even when Mosses was acting in sin), The slowing down or stopping of the Earth’s rotation, A jar of oil that refilled enough times to pay a widow’s huge debt, the curing of a leprous heathen by a dunking ritual in the River Jordan, One little stone, the playing of a harp that calmed Saul’s demons (quite literally), casting out of innumerable demons, the healing of Aeneas and the resurrection of Dorcas (by Peter incase people aren’t aware that Jesus wasn’t the only one to resurrect)… the list goes on.
In fact, I bet if someone wanted to go through scripture and tally up the instances of demonic power (‘magic’) displayed through man and stack it against God’s power (‘magic’) displayed through man, you’d find faaaar more instances of the revelation of God’s glory than dark dealings. Even in you excluded the miracles of Jesus in the tally.
The difference is not the outward motions (please note, Moses’s staff was involved in an awful lot of ‘magic’ and walking around Jericho a certain number of times per day seems pretty ritualistic, no?) but the condition of the ‘wielders’ heart to God. Those vessels God granted His momentary power to were tools used for the glory of God. We call them miracles, but really that is just a term used to describe and idea, to help differentiate between the two forces of spiritual power.
We look at it like this Satan=magic=demonic/human glory God=miracle=God’s glory. A proper way to think about it, right? But the fact that two different terms are used, magic and miracle, does not change our mortal relationship to either. Both sources of power lie just as far outside our physical reach as the center of the Milky Way, yet both are entirely real. BUT unlike the bright center of the galaxy, those powers ARE obtainable via the spiritual aspect of man.
So if we throw out the word ‘magic’ and throw out he word ‘miracle’ and decide to come up with some new, neutral terminology that may be useable to represent any form of spiritual power (for the purposes of this comment post I’ll name it ‘Lelu’) what we’re left with is the heart of the person through which such power is presented. Are they a child of God or of the Prince of the Air? Terminology. Means. Nothing. It never did. What’s always mattered is the force at play in the person.
Which brings this rather long rambling down to fiction. The spiritual world is real. Lelu is real and accessible for all mankind. It always was. So to create a fiction world where you have characters who are used to express ‘good lelu’ and maybe you have characters who are permitted (yes, permitted… Gods in control of all) to practice ‘bad lelu’ doesn’t seem at all out of sorts with reality, does it?
So to ask ourselves as authors, a.k.a. mini creators: ‘What if such power was more visibly prevalent in the world or what if it was increasing?’ ‘What if God granted some folk a keener tap or ear or spirit to access the spiritual powers of creation?’ He has every right to grant any power or gift to anyone He chooses so long as it glorifies Him, right? So is it a sin to imagine a world where He does just that? How can it be?
If man never imagined a world where the impossible was possible there would be no electricity, modern medicine, air travel, computers, phones, or even our beloved printing press. Those things can be used for so much good… or for so much ill… but that doesn’t make them either godly or sinful on their own merit, they simply ‘are’. A poppy can be a beautiful expression of God’s glory or it can be turned into an opiate that destroys peoples lives, right? But are we burning poppies? All those above man-inventions were once (and sometimes still are) decried as ‘Tools of the Devil.’ But ask yourself: Do you really believe them the genius ideas of Satan? Or rather, do you believe them the genius ideas of the incomprehensibly awesome minds God gave the men who created them? It’s all in how you use what God gives you.
So then the offense is not the terminology or the tool (there is nothing sinful about a sphere shaped ball of crystal or a branch from an elder tree either), the sin is wholly in the wicked heart of man. In his twisting of the holy. In his lust for power, and in his desire to be, himself, a perverse god. Which we see, everyday, in any number of choices we make that have nothing to do with a deliberate channeling of demons. In fact, we see them innumerably more often in the mundane than in magic. And yet we don’t cry ‘Witch!’ at those with the same passion. Or sometimes at all. We let our friends and family go to sleep in the ignorance of quite sin everyday without breathing a word.
I wonder why?
Lovely, Ruth! Don’t apologize for the length. This is great–well thought-out and backed with some great support from scripture. I love this response. Thank you so much for bringing it to the discussion!
I had thought of the same thing regarding the sex analogy. God gave us sex, and it can be the most beautiful and intimate connection between a man and woman in a God-honoring marriage. Or it can be the most twisted and perverse thing in the world. It is about *how* it is used.
God gives us free will, and that is the heart of it.
Phew! Thanks. All that from the mind of a girl who was just having an intense, pacing, dialog with Severus Snape a couple of hours ago. 🙂
Snapefic? Represent! *high-fives you*
Awesome! *high-fives back* I wasn’t actually writing fan-fic, but I tap into Severus frequently for one of the characters in my my wip, mostly to help develop dialog (I do a lot of pacing and literal talking to the people in my head during scene development). He is, quite frankly, one of my favorite characters in all of literature.
The other friend is a huge Disney fan, so I asked her if she kept her daughters from watching Disney movies.
Or My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (hey, it’s even in the title!) whose focal character Twilight Sparkle is a graduate student of magic (in Ponyville on an internship) whose mentor (Princess Celestia) is a god-figure in all but title.
Ken, aka, Headless Unicorn Guy, would you please tone down the snark and embrace some civility. I certainly don’t might dialogue and debate, but I really don’t appreciate you rolling in on controversial topics and launching scuds. Trust me, I will exercise my right to ban you from commenting on this site. Now, mind your manners. Please.