Pastor Mark Sandlin recently announced he’d be quittin’ church. At least, for three months. Why? The answer is quite… unoriginal. In Ain’t Gonna Go to Church No More, Sandlin expounds on the not-so-specifics:
I’ve come to see that, for all the good the church does for others, it is turning a blind eye to itself. Clearly, this isn’t true of all churches but the Church as a whole is predominantly being eaten
up by a variety of cancerous issues. At this point, it seems to me, those issues are not only built into the system, but are so central to the system that those who are a part of it find it very difficult to either acknowledge the issues or do anything about them if they do manage to acknowledge them.
Why am I not going to church? Because a great deal of the people with whom I’d like to figure out how to be in ministry don’t. They’re not heathen. They’re not un-spiritual. They’re — well, just like me, except they have Sundays off.
This is my hope for the next three months: I want to understand what it is that the “spiritual but not religious” like about not being in church AND I want to understand what I, a life long churchgoer, miss about not being in church.
Okay, Sandlin wants to leave church to find out why others aren’t going. Of course, the assumption is that it’s the Church’s fault people aren’t going to church. Isn’t it always? I mean, most people are naturally honest, unselfish, Truth-seeking, other-centric, and inclined toward spirituality. Most people are too faultless, too humble, too genuine, to have the blame rest on them, right? That’s why it’s gotta be the Church’s fault.
So what happens when Sandlin “connects” with these “spiritual but not religious”™ folks? You got me.
Scripture would suggest that you befriend them (a task which doesn’t require leaving church). That you talk about their relationship with God, a God Who said and did some specific things. That you shepherd them back to the flock, into relationship with other believers. That you show them where Jesus said loving other people, not living as loners, is our highest ideal. That you talk about how God’s blessed His Body with many gifted people, and that by being in that Body, they can discover their own gifting. However, these ideas are dangerous because any gathering of Christians could be considered Church-ish. Following Jesus means hanging out with others who follow Him. The Twelve apostles did not have the option of one-on-one sessions with the Master. But isn’t this what many of us really want?
Having pastored for eleven years and been actively involved in church leadership for at least 25-30, I can attest to the fact that ministers can be very out of touch with the average church member. I’ve seen church fights, church splits, heresies, dis-fellowships, power plays, manipulation, ministerial scandal, lame religious rules, obnoxious church members, and all manner of stupidity done in the name of Christ. I have skipped church to watch football, go on vacation, coach soccer, hang out with “spiritual but not religious”™ folks, or just relax.
And I didn’t have to “quit Church” to do any of it.
Sandlin claims that he needs to get “perspective.” But on what? Human nature, human inclinations, human desires? That’s pretty easy stuff to figure out. Let me give you an example. Here’s three reasons — other than the assumed one, that the Church is screwed up and irrelevant — why people don’t attend church:
- They’re not Christians. They reject the claims of Christ, have no desire to seek God (at least, the “Christian” one), or have someone encourage them to.
- They’re sinful, self-reliant, self-absorbed, and have no desire to change the way they live. “…in the last days there will be very difficult times. For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good. They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!” (II Tim. 3:1-5 NLT).
- They want to make up their own rules. Whatever they believe is true, is true for them, and they don’t need a Book, holy man, or religious institution to tell them otherwise.
Am I saying that the Church is without fault? Absolutely not! Christians are a huge part of the reason more people aren’t Christians. The problem is when we heap blame on something as broad, diverse, and nebulous as the Church, and we resolve outsiders of any guilt in the matter of faith. Much less, bestow them with a certain type of secular sainthood.
Sandlin concludes:
Together we can begin to understand this religious/spiritual gap a little better and figure out how the people of God may once again come together for the good of the world and not for its detriment.
I suspect this journey will open my eyes to the new thing God is constantly doing. I hope you’ll walk along with me and broaden my adventure.
Sorry, Pastor Mark, but I won’t be joining you on the journey. However, I am wondering, when “the people of God… once again come together” after your sabbatical, what those people will be? A support group? A fellowship? A tribe? Because if they’re a church, with any sort of spiritual rules or principles binding them together, then your “adventure” was just a loop.
I don’t say any of this to be judgmental or harsh, and I hope it doesn’t come off sounding like that. I get that the ministry can be a drain, that pastors need to get into the real world. But I think Scripture is pretty clear about the Church, the world, and the people who inhabit both domains. And I don’t know that we need to leave the one to reach the other.
So my apologies, Pastor Mark. But if you look closely, I think you’ll find that those who are “spiritual but not religious”™ are selfish, self-centered, arrogant, pleasure-seeking, unforgiving, hurting, broken, and phony.
Just like those of us who will never quit church.
Most people’s perceptions of the church and Christians are shaped by media consumption, which is to say that it’s a heavily biased sampling — just about anything portrayed in fictional or journalism-style media is out of the ordinary (people rarely write stories or report on Christians acting like Christians). It’s the nature of the medium.
Christians are in no way responsible for this and should not respond to most charges that start like “most Christians act like…”. But all people as individual, epistemological actors are. Once an rational actor has done due diligence on the nature of media they should conclude that most mass media portrayals are highly erroneous, and rationales based on this sampling should be jettisoned.
Loved this one, Mike–you nailed it. Yes, some churches are backward in the way they go about doing things. Yes, some churches have too much scrapping around. Yes, some churches aren’t reaching the community as well as they could. But it’s all the more reason to get involved, use your gifts, and build up the church God places you in. I’ve been part of a church where every member considers him/herself a minister, and that church was a shining light for the area–members learned to get along, plug in their gifts/talents, and invite others in. Only God can orchestrate something that remarkable and that VISIBLE w/sinners such as all of us.
The church-leaving, church-hopping trend reflects the selfishness of the heart. “I can’t work with these people, so I’m outta here.” It’s sad, because your spiritual gifts can’t be used to build up other believers unless you are around them. And you’re learning from brothers and sisters who have gone through the very things you might be slated to go through someday.
I think Pastor Mark should also quit praying to Jesus, quit reading his Bible, quit giving, and quit partnering with God in all Christian matters, because that’s what those who don’t go to church usually do as well. I mean if he is going to really “go for it” in this experiment he shouldn’t just limit it to not attending church on Sunday.
Bitching, moaning & groaning…yada, yada, yada. It’s “cool” these days to do what this guy is doing (there is no end to the books & know-it-alls that will gladly take your money to inform you of how un-cool church is, and how cool & hip their way is), and we all know cool is…well, cool. While he is cool, the rest of us losers will continue to preach the Gospel, feed the hungry, give hope to the hopeless, serve one another as an example of our Lord’s attitude, send missionaries around the world, forgive one another, stick it out with one another, love one another, worship with one another, and continue “to come together for the good of the world” as we have been doing for a very long time. Go ahead and give me the “loser” button. Cool will never be compassionate.
I have to say Tim, this response was worth the price of admission!
My pastor taught me that one of the things the enemy will always attack is your faithfulness to church. And why not? If he can get you separated from the body, not only are you cut off from your support system, but your stopped from using the spiritual gifts God’s given you to strengthen and encourage others in the body. It’s kind of a win-win for satan. He hurts you AND others in the church. So, yeah, I think Pastor Mark needs to tread carefully, and for his sake, I hope his journey IS a loop.
So if you’re a pastor and you don’t go to church, does that mean you’re no longer a pastor? Can you be a shepherd without a flock? What about his responsibility to all the people — losers, like me, as Tim Holt put it above — who think attending church is important? I don’t go to church to look good for anybody. I because that’s where I belong, and because Christ has promised his presence is there.
Offering a slightly different perspective here…I go to church, but not nearly as much as I should. I’ve fought myself over this time and time again – WHY do I not like going to church? When I was young, the church family was a huge part of my life. As an adult, I’d like that again. But something is holding me back. I’m still trying to figure it all out – but one of the conclusions I’ve come to is this: my highly, almost pathological introverted nature. Meeting new people is incredibly difficult for me and being in a group of unknown people is even worse. I shrivel inside. That part in the service where you stand up and greet the person behind you? I dread it. If I could, I would sit in the balcony completely by myself and listen to the sermon, sing the hymns, etc., and not be distracted by anything every single Sunday. But then I’d feel bad because as believers, we are supposed to worship together. I’m trying to overcome this, and need to pray about it more. But I find I do much better when I am with two of my very good Christian friends – just the three of us, talking about the Lord. So I guess what I’m trying to say is, Mike, your three reasons that people do not go to church aren’t as clear-cut as you made it out to be. I know I’m a sinner and maybe I’m being selfish with my time – that could certainly be true. But there is a real fear for me there – is it agoraphobia? I don’t know if I’d go that far, but let me just say that it takes a LOT of energy for me to go to church and deal with it all. Just another perspective to think about…
I also should add that when I do get the courage up to go, I am usually glad that I did and feel renewed and refreshed from the service. It’s just conquering that initial fear I struggle with.
Thanks for commenting, Melissa. Obviously my three reasons aren’t the only three reasons people don’t attend church. Some of those reasons are indeed understandable, especially if we’re talking about incapacity, handicap, transportation issues, medical issues, etc., etc. But I don’t think this pastor is addressing that group. He’s addressing those who find the Church irrelevant and/or unnecessary. I don’t sense you’re in that place. If this post seemed condemning, forgive me. It’s not intended to be. Going to church doesn’t make people Christians. And as long as you’re seriously wrestling with those issues (and I know agoraphobia can be), I believe God is honored in the fight.
I read his article. Sounds to me like he’s just trying to do research, and possibly he’s dealing with burnout at the same time. The media has made this big kerfuffle about the “Nones” and the kids leaving church and whatnot. I had a friend grill me on why I didn’t go to church and what their church could do to attract me.
I have small children who contract every illness under the sun whenever we set foot in one, so I’ve stayed away just because of that. I have no problem with going to church. It’s just not practical right now.
What about those of us who can’t find a denomination that follows Jesus’ teachings, Mike? We’re left ‘unchurched.’ Well, not really, because where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is with us. My wife Ember and I make two people, so we’re covered. I’d _love_ to be part of a group of Brethren in Christ or Mennonites, but they don’t exist where God has placed me and my wife, so we live that way by ourselves. And God speaks, and reveals Himself, and nurtures us, and we grow in Him, and are kept with Christ in God. And that’s all we care about. His Presence.
Wrong in the Body of Christ is always cause for intercession, and never for a superiority trip. We intercede for the Body… while remaining outside the doors of the buildings that house It on Sundays. (Few would hear our theology anyway, and we’d be asked to leave soon enough.)
Speaking as a Mennonite in a region without an active Mennonite fellowship:
1. As you point out…God doesn’t require large numbers. Have worship and study time with just your spouse if need be.
2. Get in contact with Mennonite Central Committee. Sometimes there are other Mennonites in the area having house fellowship and you may not know it.
3. Stay in touch with other Mennonites via Third Way Cafe. It’s an online newsletter/forum that can bolster you. It also keeps you apprised of Mennonite Relief projects you can contribute to financially or in kind.
Feel free to email me (k.coble@comcast.net) with any other ???? Re. Mennonism.
Scathe meic Beorh, when my Mennonite parents moved us to a part of Southern California where there was no Mennonite church, we began attending a non-denominational church that believed the gospel. Yes, there were a number of theological differences, but those usually became discussion fodder for the ride home or during dinner time.
It was at that church than I first had a Sunday school teacher who challenged me to spend time in the Bible regularly on my own. I’ll always be glad for that church and those believers and ultimately for the lesson I didn’t even know I was learning–that the body of Christ is not broken up into denominations.
Becky
I quit church, on occasion, because I’m sick of being around people. I go back to church because I’m sick of being around myself.
So true, Lyn. I can very easily retreat into myself for long stretches. Church is a necessary, albeit messy, reminder that I shouldn’t.
Dad,
I like this topic and I think you have a great answer to these kinds of complaints. This would be a good topic for your first nonfiction book. I think we need it.
Yesterday I was browsing the Christian Inspirational section at Barnes and Noble. The bookshelves were lined with this type of stuff from Pastor Mark. I guess people are eating it up. It’s time to counter. Let me know when you finish writing it. I’ll proofread.
Chris, I may eventually write a non-fiction book on this subject. Even though those who endorse the “spiritual but not religious” mindset frame it as reasonable and genuine, the trend is to “bash the Church” in the process. It’s unfounded, divisive, and very unbiblical, in my mind. Anyway, I have outlined a non-fiction book on the subject that, Lord willing, one day I will write. Thanks for the encouragement!
But then are those who’ve simply been hurt one too many times by churches, and have chosen to disengage. It’s been five years now since my wife and I left, and we’re slowly, very slowly, starting to heal.
Will we try again one day? I don’t know. All I can say is “perhaps.” Right now we’re part of the walking wounded, and sad to say, I’d venture there are thousands of us.
Right, John. Sometimes the pain received in church is overwhelming. My initial reason for leaving Christendom was that my eyes were on man and his inconsistencies (and painful attacks!) instead of the Serpent in the Wilderness (St. John 3:14). I also left because I had been raised in church and the world looked too enticing. I had to take a bite or three. These were not good reasons for me to leave. But, oddly, the reason I don’t go back now is because of the plethora of extra-Biblical doctrines I once overlooked but now find impossible to condone, and impossible to change.
Totally understand, John. I think the key, though, is that you’re “starting to heal.” What does that mean if not re-engaging other believers in a communal context? I think we do a disservice to people by suggesting that if they’ve been hurt by a church, they can opt out. The Scriptural ideal seems to be learning to live within community; working through bitterness, disappointment, and offense rather than just leaving.
Mike, I think that’s a great answer. We tend to forget that when we say we’re “leaving church,” we are actually leaving people. It’s people who put together the programs and do the praiseworthy or sinful things that get associated with “church.” It’s really not an option for us to live with a lack of forgiveness. Talk about wounds! That’s the biggest one of all.
Becky
Don’t we at some point have to decide that Jesus’ compassion, comfort, and consistency is more powerful than people’s failure to show compassion consistency? Isn’t there some point where we can courageously “put up with one another” for the sake of a testimony to our communities? I’m not condoning staying in a cult, or a spiritually abusive system, but isn’t the power of the Spirit able to equip us to forgive one another, pray for one another, ect.? You know all those “one another’s” in the bible. Our community expression is a direct reflection of the supernatural power of the redeeming work of Christ. If we keep bailing out, we never stick it out, and so we never stick out…as a unified body to our communities.
Once, early on in this faith walk, I was chased around a car by a rabid deacon after sharing my testimony with a youth group (of which his daughter came to Christ). He was going to beat the crap out of me…this leader (the deacon) in the church. It would have been easy then to walk away, but instead God led us into a life of serving the church. All of us have been hurt, rejected, misunderstood, discounted, insulted, maybe even maligned at times, and yet in the midst of a group of people with different backgrounds, hurts, etc., Christ chooses to express himself. Let’s face it, left to ourselves, even left alone with a small group of people just like ourselves, we get weird. God is brilliant-every tribe & tongue; a place where there is neither male, female, Gentile, Jew, as an expression of the redeeming love of Christ. The church is worth the hurt.
If you are not among a people different (even difficult) than yourself, you will never be different. And I for one, need the change. And…the world deserves to see it.
“The church is worth the hurt.”
Tim, this is a great line. Like you, I have many, many reasons to not attend a local church; to be bitter and wounded, “spiritual but not religious.” The first century church, far from being a model of unity, is evidence that whenever God’s people congregate, there are problems. It’s also evident that no matter how bad it gets, sticking it out and working through issues is the biblical ideal. Not quitting the church. Thanks for commenting!
Mike, if you write your book, and maybe it is indeed important to do that, please focus in on the people who are trying to hurt the Body of Christ, and not on those of us who have left for some of the other reasons we have shared here.
I would second that request. Vehemently.
Tim, what a great response. Here are the lines I love. In fact I thought about putting them up on Facebook, but then thought better of it, not having your permission, and all.
Becky
This strikes me as touchy feelie look at this great thing *I’m* doing, look how cool *I* am. *I* understand the downfalls of Christianity. *I’ll* sidle up to the heathens because *I’m* one of the good ones.
I, I, I, me, me, me.
*My* experience, *my* journey, yada, yada, yada, yada.
Christianity mixed with humanism mixed with the faint odor of pantheist wannabe. Somewhat appealing on the surface, but when broken down into it’s parts, a kind of bankrupt spirituality.
Perhaps I’m being too harsh. I must still be grumpy. Please, someone, temper my comments if necessary.
Couldn’t agree more, Jessica. We’ve all been hurt by the church…and if we’re being really honest, we’ve done some hurting ourselves. But we look to Jesus, and Jesus gave loads more than he received. He was betrayed, abandoned, mistrusted, gossiped about and so on…all that before he went to the cross. He had a heart for people…which His Father provided. A lot of the current watercooler Christian talk always revolves around me. Never about the church and the people. Jesus and Paul spoke often about offering themselves up to others and the will of God without concern for their own well-being.
That said, I think we all go through seasons of frustration and burnout, and that’s a direct consequence of the American church. It’s the twenty percent trying to keep things going while the eighty percent sit back and drink coffee or complain. I heard one pastor say that one church member who helps out has two or three other members just lying on top of them, letting that one person do their share of the work/giving. I can’t blame a minister or layperson who throws in the towel to sit on the sidelines for a while. While some Christians need a kick in the butt to quit feeling sorry for themselves, others need to take a break and re-charge their batteries. We can give grace to those who buckle.
I guess it’s all about balance, really.
We need to remember to see Church as an organism rather than an organization. I found more humble, loving, intelligent Christians outside of a building/organization than inside. My opinion.
I agree with you, Mike. Quitting church is the easy way out. Sure all churches have problems, but, like with marriage, people should try to work on solutions, not just give up.
Part of the problem lies in the definition of terms. The Church is the Body of Christ at large, and referred to as the Bride of Christ, etc., in Scripture. A church is a local gathering of Jesus followers. Unfortunately, when we decide to make an art and/or science out of doing church it inevitably becomes an institution. Do a bit of research on the growing mistrust in this country for institutions in general. Not a pretty picture.
Christ’s Body, The Church, is alive and well and multiplying hourly all over the world because Christ is her Head. Local churches, on the other hand, are dropping like flies (in this country) because somewhere in the area of 20-25 million people have left the pew (See “Revolution”, by George Barna). If I hear you correctly, Mike, these folks are all “selfish, self-centered, arrogant, pleasure-seeking, unforgiving, hurting, broken, and phony”. Seriously? If that attitude is prevalent in churches it’s no wonder why so many people are making such a hasty exit.
Considering that most modern churches are cultural expressions of local communities of faith, and not necessarily consistent with New Covenant thought and lifestyle, perhaps it would be healthy for us to hold on to them loosely. There’s nothing wrong with a group of Christians pooling their resources to construct and maintain a building in which they can meet on a regular basis. [Personally, I struggle a bit with spending tons of money to erect a structure that is only used a few hours per week.] But when it gets to the point that we promote our church more than Jesus we have a serious problem. He said he would build his “Church”, not churches.
Quitting Church is impossible because she’s part of us and we’re part of her. Walking away from the four-walled structure we call a church is not necessarily a bad idea – if the life of Christ is not present, or the group is more interested in fighting over the color of the new carpet than it is in reaching out to the local community, or if the pastor is spiritually abusive, etc. The “give me, feed me, like me, take care of me” attitude among church-hoppers is troublesome, but no more so than the “by God I’ll NEVER leave my church” stubbornness that places institutional loyalty above truth.
So if God has planted you in a local body that meets in it’s own building, where you are growing and serving, where Jesus is seen both in and outside of the walls, then by all means stay! But if the Spirit is reminding you to resist becoming “entangled again with a yoke of bondage” (Gal 5:1), then find or start a community of faith in a home, bar, cafe, dorm room, neighborhood club house, local park, or an unused historic Cathedral. The venue is of no spiritual consequence because the One we follow promised that “wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am also.”
Yes, Derryck! Here, here! Many thanks for this insightful and Spirit-filled reply!
Derryck, I’m not sure we’re that far off in what we’re saying. If the Church as Body of Christ is growing as fast as you say, then these “brethren” have to meet somewhere right? After all, this is what their Master commands them. Whether it’s “a home, bar, cafe, dorm room, neighborhood club house, local park, or an unused historic Cathedral” they should “not forsake the assembling of themselves together” (Heb. 10:25). This is exactly how many churches start.
You’re right, placing institutional loyalty above truth is wrong. Problem is, that truth must play a part in any institutional church (small c) gathering. After all, their Messiah is the Truth (Jn. 14:6). So how does Truth express itself in these gatherings? What principles govern their gatherings? What doctrines or beliefs bind them together? Are there any? Are they seeking to further the Gospel? If so, is there an organized effort to do so (like Christ sending out the Twelve or the Seventy)? Because any “body” with such huge aspirations as “go into all the world,” must have some structural framework, right? But this is the very thing many of those who reject “organized religion” reject.
All that to say, it’s impossible to separate the Church from churches. Claiming that one can be in one (the Church) and remained untethered to local gatherings of the Body (churches… or fellowship groups, meetings, whatever) is without biblical warrant. Just to make sure you understand my point, EVERYONE is “selfish, self-centered, arrogant, pleasure-seeking, unforgiving, hurting, broken, and phony,” including those who choose to attend a local church. Some people who refuse to attend a church do so because of selfishness, pleasure-seeking, and pride. We shouldn’t make them out to be humble, hurting saints. Some of them are just liars and lazy. Just like people who regularly attend a church.
You’re probably right, Mike – we’re not that far apart on most of this. Heb 10:25 is one of the references that make it clear that God’s people are created for community, so gathering together is a natural and necessary dynamic. However, the writer to the Hebrews was not referring to any specific time (i.e. Sunday morning), or place (a local church). My guess is that Pastor Sandlin was referring to the destructive impact that a legalistic mindset, regarding church attendance, has on one’s relationship with Christ – that if we’re not in a local church on Sunday morning there’s something wrong with us. There is nothing in Scripture to support that specific notion, unless we opt to twist Heb 10:25 to say what our human traditions dictate.
You are correct that human beings are inextricably attracted to creating systems and structures, partly because structure is essential. But does the structure edify us or control us? Does it work for us, or do we work for it? Following principles and doctrines tends to separate believers more often than uniting us because anytime we become determined to “do something” for God (evangelize, disciple, get holier, etc.) it becomes dependent upon us, which is nothing more than expression of well-inentioned flesh. It comes down to the difference between motivation and movement: Are we seeking to motivate ourselves and one another, or are responding to the movement of God’s Spirit in and through us? The demarkation line is very subtle, but the contrasting results are stark.
I agree that it’s impossible to separate Church from churches, primarily because every believer is a member of the Body of Christ, the Church. But that is not to say that we should glibly accept flesh-based, performance-oriented religion as healthy, or to assume that every believer is selfish, self-centered, etc. That is another discussion for another time, perhaps, but I couldn’t disagree with you more. Not everyone should be lumped into the category of humble or hurting, but neither should everyone be lumped into the selfish and self-centered group.
The New Testament refers to us as “saints” dozens of times. We are called holy, righteous, perfect, blameless, spotless, complete in Christ, children of God, accepted in the beloved, forgiven (once and for all), set free, redeemed, justified, and more. Measuring spiritual identity by human behavior will ALWAYS end up distracting us from the truth, and is one of the reasons why people like Pastor Sandlin choose to step away from institutionalized churchianity.
Appreciate your thoughts, Derryck. May God grant us both grace in advancing His reign!
We actually have some close friends who were literally called out of their local fellowship. The Father asked them to take at least a six month sabbatical because they needed significant deconstruction to happen as it relates to what they had been taught about what ministry, Church, fellowship, family and Kingdom really are. For example: The guy who stands on stage and preaches to the thousands in the seat in front of him? He’s not all of those people’s pastor. He can’t possibly pastor even a few hundred people, much less a thousand at one time. I had never considered that truth until last year, and now I get it.
The guy who speaks at our fellowship? Who’s title is Pastor? Who was my husband’s boss for a year and a half? I’ve never even had a conversation with him. He doesn’t know me, or even my kid’s names for that matter. Not my pastor. Not my church. That’s my community. Church for us happens as a way of life, with people we love and walk together on a regular basis. Our pastor’s are people who we call when things go bad, or when we need help hearing the Father, or when there is dissension in our ranks (which we are currently dealing with). They are the people we receive rebuke from when necessary, and they get to reap the rewards of their time and effort in our lives. The guy on the stage? He’s a great communicator, encourager and evangelist. That’s great, and he does a fantastic job doing those things. I just wonder who is actually pastoring all those people.
YES! I came here specifically looking for this response and was surprised that it took me scrolling this long to find it! WE ARE THE CHURCH. This book has really helped me reshape my view of what the ‘church’s’ role is verses what the ‘Church’s’ is. http://www.amazon.com/dp/0982543417/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=18306468475&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9937045052058612646&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&ref=pd_sl_2mv0bekt70_e Tom and the Goldfish Bowl, by Ben Pasley.
Without a real expression of the body of Christ actually gathering together, sticking it out, all of this romantic, mystical jargon for the universal church is simply hoopla from those who dislike the organized church (which has done the vast majority of missions and justice work worldwide). Until these segmented, disenfranchised people produce the amount of good work worldwide that the dreaded and hated organized, institutional church has, you will not have a foot to stand on. Until then, withdraw and go to work. Be an example of the unity and power of putting up with one another so the world will know we are his disciples (how can we love when we can’t even be in a building together?). Pool your resources and feed the hungry, house the homeless, be a testimony. Get started!
Disparaging the local church does not make a case for withdrawing from it. It only reflects some postmodern gooey ideal that disengages people from doing the hard work, the glorious work of community.
“Considering that most modern churches are cultural expressions of local communities of faith, and not necessarily consistent with New Covenant thought and lifestyle, perhaps it would be healthy for us to hold on to them loosely. ” Really? Most? You know most churches? You know that “most churches” are not consistent with New Covenant thought & lifestyle? Amazing.
By the way you need to read something in addition to Barna. Start with Dr. Bradley Wright’s excellent research & statistical work called, “Christians Are Hate-filled Hypocrites…and Other Lies You’ve Been Told: A Sociologist Shatters Myths From the Secular & Christian Media.” People are not leaving the church in droves. And while any of us who have been at this for some time know we have huge challenges, Jesus’ church is alive and well…even the institutional one. Are there problems, theological aberrations and groups who have been left behind, sure.
And how you wrapped Galatians 5:1 around your distaste for the local church is again, amazing. I thought this was about legalism, the law, circumcision, etc.
I love a vigorous debate, exchange, around this issue because there are so many fallacies, misunderstandings and agendas at work. When we impugn an entire group, like the local church, institutional church, organized church, church with a building, etc. we fail to appreciate what God has done for centuries through these very institutions. Have there been failures, problems, even tragic consequences to some groups? Indeed, but that is because they involve people. Overall the (local) church still feeds the hungry, preaches the Gospel, cares for the sick, leads congregational worship that in some small way exemplifies the kingdom to come (many tribes, tongues, etc.), and is a testimony to their communities of the power of redemption. And one last thing…
Matthew 18:19 had to do with discipline, not our 2 or 3 gathering in a home away from the mean, nasty church. Jesus knew doing the work of seeing a community of believers learn to do life together in a large way would be difficult. If your group is only 2-3, where is the “church” he told us to take the discipline to? How can you “treat him as you would a tax collector” if it’s 2/3rds of your “church?”
The church is worth the work. It is worth the effort of doing life together in a larger context so that our larger culture can see it. We do life better together. We get weird when left to ourselves. This is an exaggeration & crude I grant, but it’s like spiritual incest – the kids eventually look and act weird. We must be around those different than ourselves; have disagreements, offend and forgive one another, it’s just God’s way. Pulling away, writing off the larger church body removes us from the very tension we need to grow.
Interesting take on the conversation, Tim. Divergent thoughts, opinions, and ideas are usually healthy aspects of “iron sharpening iron.” Up to this point the discussion in response to Mike’s blog has been friendly and respectful. I too enjoy a vigorous discussion, but would find it more enjoyable without your anger and sarcasm. You have accused me, or others, of disliking the organized church, being “segmented, disenfranchised people”, “disparaging”, “postmodern gooey” idealists, and impugning of an “entire group.” And yet you instruct us to “Be an example of the unity and power of putting up with one another . . .”
Considering the fact that neither you, nor any of the rest of us, has any idea how many churches we’ve planted and pastored all over the world, how many missionaries or church leaders any of us have trained and mentored, how many burned out and spiritually abused believers we’ve counseled, or what our personal experience with local church has been, making assumptions about where one’s heart lies with regard to The Church, local churches, or the folks who leave or stay is presumptuous. So brother, feel free to share your opinions because we want to hear what you have to say. But please withhold your judgements before you carefully look, listen, and learn about those with whom you enter into discussion or debate.
I’m not sure how you have managed to extract such inaccurate conclusions from what has been shared so far, but I, for one, have no distaste for local churches. But Tim, where exactly do you think Paul’s readers were being hammered with “legalism, the law, circumcision, etc.?” Wasn’t he writing to several local churches throughout Galatia? Apparently, the Body life among that group of churches wasn’t altogether healthy.
And of course I do not personally know most churches. However, nowhere in the New Testament have I found instructions to laud star-studded senior pastors, erect multi-million dollar sanctuaries that stand empty most of the week, fulfill mountains of requirements just in order to become a member of a local church, or promote the fallacy that “bigger is better”. There is, though, specific mention of seven churches in Revelation, the majority (5) of which were rebuked quite soundly for failing to function in ways that the Spirit laid out through John and the other Biblical writers of the day.
So the difficulties encountered by present-day local churches are not new. Being honest about the fallout and magnitude of those difficulties does not imply general distaste for local churches, or the opinion that no one should attend one. Instead, the honest awareness of weaknesses will hopefully cause us to prayerfully re-think the ways in which we respond to the injunction to gather together as God’s people.
Thankfully, God chooses to work through his Church in spite of our human weaknesses and disagreements over how the Body should function.
Amen. (please follow the link if you’d like to know EXACTLY what I mean by this:http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=amen&searchmode=none)
My final comment, which isn’t mine:
‘Take to God the things that perturb your spirit. You notice that certain people are not going on spiritually and you begin to feel perturbed; if the discernment turns you to intercession, it is good; but if it turns to criticism it blocks you in your way to God. God never gives us discernment of what is wrong for us to criticise it, but that we might intercede.’
– Oswald Chambers: The Highest Good
Scathe, I’m not sure what you’re implying by this. If it’s that you’ll intercede for me, I appreciate that.